Snipers! They don't belong.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Well obviously it was meant to be sarcastic, I was trying to shed some light that this was sounding like a completely bigoted response. And no, Pubbing is NOT necessarily another way of playing the same game because you have gamemodes in pubbing that don't exist in leagues.

"League" can refer to more than just literal, existing leagues and the way they play the game. ff_volleyball (or ff_redlight_greenlight for that matter) can have a "league" style of play, just as GunZ can have a "Korean-style/K-style".

In FF, league-style/clan-style usually refers to doing whatever is necessary to get more team points than the other team (within the rules/guidelines laid out, however arbitrary they might seem).

Originally Posted by Iggy

don't sit there and cry about it like a little girl with a skinned knee.....

If that's what you think this thread is (or even just my posts)... I don't know what to say.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by squeek.

If that's what you think this thread is (or even just my posts)... I don't know what to say.

Not all of it, no. But alot of Bridget's complaints seem to be based specifically on that type of arguement. I know the Sniper isn't perfect, there is always room for improvement. Saying the class needs to be removed from the game all together, for whatever reason(s), is rediculous. It has it's place, in pubs, leagues and pickups. It's part of the game... like a wall is part of a map.

Maybe the Sniper shouldn't be in *ALL* situations/maps/styles/etc..... but then again, you could make the same arguement for all classes. Why pick out the sniper?

[Bridget]

Anyone who thinks you can 'fight back' with a Sniper who is sitting across the map with the laser on you is obviously deluded. "Some of you are acting like everyone who plays sniper gets an insta-gib everytime they fire." Yeah, except, that's how it is. The argument that the Sniper 'has its place' is not about its CORE BALANCE. Everyone keeps arguing the same shit "It's good on defense, it has its place, it has a role.", but that's irrelevant. I would not doubt such a consistency-breaking class indeed does have a good role.

The pub vs league play argument that goes on is what kills the experience for a lot of people. Ask anyone who fell away from FF or refuses to give it a try. I read a review once for Fortress Forever that specifically pointed out its elitism as a major flaw.

[squeek.]

League/clan-style play as elitism still doesn't make any sense to me. All league/clan-style means is that team score is the most important thing, and that everyone is playing with that in mind. Every beta test FF has ever had has been "league style" in that sense (and the beta team is and always has been far from elitist).

[Bridget]

It's not league play, it's the people league play creates. Like many other aspects of life, when you think you have all the answers, you develop a superiority complex and block out anything you presume is 'wrong'. I'm a member of the Talos Community, and I swear every day there was someone from the league scene in our server talking shit about how 'noob' someone was and how they'd 'totally own them in league play, not this pub shit' or bitching about how broken pubs were because their 'conc timing' was off by half a second. It just seems league players are on a fucking permanent high-horse, and it's what ruins the communal experience for new players. Trust me, community makes a game just as much as the game itself. Look at Team Fortress 2.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek

In FF, league-style/clan-style usually refers to doing whatever is necessary to get more team points than the other team (within the rules/guidelines laid out, however arbitrary they might seem).

Well defining terms probably helps. I think of "league" play as CTF matches using several specific rules by experienced players. I tend to synonymize league play with "clan" or "pickup", etc. I guess my point is the flow goes like this:

CTF:
Start playing -> get good at it -> learn new rules and play pickups -> join a clan -> compete in league matches

AvD, ID, push maps, hunted, murderball etc.:
Start playing -> get good at it -> yeah that's pretty much it

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Bridget

It's not league play, it's the people league play creates. Like many other aspects of life, when you think you have all the answers, you develop a superiority complex and block out anything you presume is 'wrong'.

That is certainly not specific to league players. Anyone can feel superior and have the need to express their opinions. See: Every multiplayer game ever (DotA illustrates the point well). I don't understand that need, but I'd still say it's both not unique to FF and not unique to league players.

I will say, though, anyone saying they'd "totally own [someone] in league play, not [that] pub shit" is clearly misguided. That statement doesn't make any sense in the context of league play, unless they were challenging someone to a 1v1 (which is basically a punchline in the competitive community).

chilled: The only thing different with CTF and non-CTF in your scenario is that CTF leagues exist at the moment and non-CTF don't. That is entirely different than non-CTF leagues not being able to exist. League play is not inherently specific to CTF. It just currently is.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

So according to you, pub play is never correct. Since AvD basically never happens outside a pub, does this mean AvD is "incorrect"?

I think you forget that there's more to FF than just league CTF. Pub CTF is a nightmare and always has been. AvD used to be balanced once upon a time back in TFC and early FF. You've stated a couple times now that pub input is irrelevant, but when talking about changes that can break a game mode heavily, I don't understand this attitude.

I mean I can think of a lot of balance changes needed, but I wouldn't want league play completely sacrificed because I realize other people care about that, so there should be some compromise.

I think you're extrapolating your own interpretation of what I was trying to say. It's not so much that PUBS are incorrect, it's the people who play in pubs (Most of them) are the ones utilizing the games incorrectly. I pub all the time, and I find it enjoyable, but I also realize that the game is being improperly utilized in pubs. That's my point.

[cjeshjoir™]

I didn't read any of the other posts, but Im going to provide a solution anyways.

sniperrifle:
"Damage" = 35  (Original is 45)

Sniper can't rapidfire and blow people away as easily. Full charge shot to HWG chest isnt a kill anymore. And...

autorifle:
"Damage" = 5 (Original is 7)

This fucker isnt a soldier, he shouldnt act like one.

P.S.: More AvD.

[Bridget]

That's far from a solution.

[Credge]

A fully charged chest sniper shot shouldn't kill a full healthed HWGuy currently anyway. That is to say that with the current stats (unless undocumented changes have happened... which may be the case as it's happened before) do not physically allow this to happen.

The problem with the sniper is that he doesn't fit and his only counter is another sniper.

Map design (both CTF and AVD) plays a large role in this by having the best sniper spots typically being outside of spawns.

[cjeshjoir™]

Originally Posted by Bridget

That's far from a solution.

srsly though, play more AvD...

[Born_In_Xixax]

The problem with the sniper currently is the one-dimensional nature. His one and only power is the sniper-shot (insta-gib) at range. Due to the nature of the other classes, and the resulting map designs (enclosed areas and halls vs. wide-open fields of fire,) there are few - typically one - places in a map where a sniper can be effective (as noted, AvD tends to be an exception.) As a result, he is overpowered in his single position to the point of being annoying/unfair, but ineffective in all others. This generates the seemingly contradictory opinions we see here: some arguing the sniper is overpowered, some arguing he is useless (in 'real' matches.)

The sniper will never be removed from a TF game (or it wouldn't be TF,) but for the life of me I can't think of a way to add more dimensions to the sniper. Giving back concs - to enable some offensive capability - and making the AR a decent mid-range weapon equivalent to the super shotgun might make things more interesting.

[Bridget]

He would still retain his Sniper Rifle with your suggestion, therefore the only thing that would change would be his ability to fight back at close range — for the better. That's the opposite of balancing him, that's pushing him further up over the other classes. Also, I dislike this idea that 'Team Fortress' is defined by its classes specifically.

[SSCUJO]

its seems that you don't want to change the sniper bridget but rather remove it and replace it. a sniper is defined by long range and high damage, in every game. thats the deal.

[Bridget]

I have made suggestions toward changing the Sniper to make him more balanced, but I believe Sniper is unbalanced at the core for the game-play Fortress Forever strives for, where players are death-matching at opportunistic ranges. Those suggestions included keeping him long range and making his Sniper Rifle projectile-based instead of hit-scan. I would feel less inclined to bitch if I knew that the Sniper didn't have such an easy job abusing his range privilege.

Ultimately, though, I believe removing the Sniper is the only way to bring true balance. Any real balancing changes makes him a new class, and for whatever reason, people are opposed to that. They think the classes define a Fortress game, but is it true? I am not limited by nostalgia and conservative thought when it comes to game theory, especially if breaking that mode of thought could result in a better game for everyone — not just the asshole sitting at his spawn with a high-damage rifle with zoom and two special abilities and a range of effectiveness that casts shadows on the others.

[Dr.Satan]

the real question, though, is does a character with "long range and high damage," fit in with the rest of the game?

edit: bah, bridgett beat me

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

the real question, though, is does a character with "long range and high damage," fit in with the rest of the game?

The answer to that is an obvious 'no'.

[Born_In_Xixax]

Originally Posted by Bridget

He would still retain his Sniper Rifle with your suggestion, therefore the only thing that would change would be his ability to fight back at close range — for the better. That's the opposite of balancing him, that's pushing him further up over the other classes.

I might support some experimental changes to nerf the long-range attack, some ideas: restrict charged shots to scoped (like TF2), restrict FOV even more when scoped (like TF2), reduce damage at extreme range...

Also, I dislike this idea that 'Team Fortress' is defined by its classes specifically.

That comment was mainly just hoisting the colours...Long live the nine I'd consider adding/removing classes, but only if the change was truly compelling.

[Bridget]

Scope suggestions were met with quick opposition from Snipers, naturally.