THE SHOWDOWN: Does God exist?

Originally Posted by uBeR

Pooping.

Not so. Most of my best thoughts come while I'm pooping. LeVay had an interesting essay on how sitting on the toilet affects the brain waves of the sitter.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Guitar solo!

Why, uh... why can't good and evil exist without God? That's stupid.

That's really, bountifully stupid.

I said the classic definition of an "evil force" in the universe can not exist within Atheism. Animals kill each other, that isn't evil, that's nature. Why should that be (in atheism) any different for man? How is it different for man, what's the "evil force" that we have that animals do not?

Again though, calling my idea's stupid, well done. I've never understood people that have to personally attack someone just because they don't share their beliefs. I think it would really help your outlook if you were a little more open and tolerant of opposing viewpoints.

Scuzzy

[Innoc]

Circ, how can Good and Evil exist without God? Good and Evil are absolutes. As has been suggested earlier in this thread without the framework of a higher being you end up with the slippery slope of moral relativism. With a morality established by God you have a constant framework that is not subject to the whims of man. People may decide to ignore the various tenets of that framework but they do so knowing they are violating the established morality.

Originally Posted by allisvoid

yes scuzzy i would agree...

kid icarus i thought i was the only one who believed in the spaghetti monster...

i've lost all interest in this topic... you guys have fun.

FSM FTW. The rest... well, people naturally want to push their ideas out into the world. Sometimes these desires find us on forums about issues as frightening as the foundation for our very existence. Its like, if I can't convince you of the way I see things, then my sense of being is in jeopardy.

I used to be all about such arguments, until I saw that ultimate silver lining in the clouds of reason that was the FSM.



Sorry, didn't mean to double post.

[uBeR]

Does evil exist?

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists? A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything? The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil". The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

yeah I didn't write this, BTW.

[BumGravy]

Man i cant believe I missed this thread.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

I thought God was everywhere? What happened to omnipotency?

[Player]

IQ has no bearing on intelligence!

[Scuzzy]

In reference to absense of God in a man's heart:

Originally Posted by BumGravy

Man i cant believe I missed this thread.
I thought God was everywhere? What happened to omnipotency?

Greatest gift of all brother: free will.

[Circuitous]

Originally Posted by Innoc

With a morality established by God you have a constant framework that is not subject to the whims of man.

Hahahaha.

Okay. You win. I can't out-bullshit this.

[[AE] 82694]

I must say overall I'm impressed with the discussions I have read in here.

Most of you seem well educated on what ever side you picked. I chose to stay out of this post because I'm not good at debates.

Just wanted to say good job guys.

[accrede]

Christians today already pick and choose which bits of the bible to follow and what not to follow, so I' not sure where you're going with this rules from god stuff?

[Leandros]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

This thread is complete and utter garbage except for Bubbles.

ATTN: The Religious:
The non-believers don't actually care what you think.

ATTN: The Non Religious:
The believers don't actually care what you think.

ATTN: Everyone:
Go play some fucking video games.

Just before anyone tries to take a shot at this post going "but we're really debating!!!", I think what Circ meant is that however valid points from either sides are, they won't change anything.

[BinaryLife]

Behold!
http://revistes.upc.es/wiki/images/8...ti_Monster.jpg


Seriously though, there is no physicle or "scientific" proof that God exists. Religeon is for those who want it, and not for those who don't. Personally as I've mentioned I can't stand it. But if the stories and tales that the bible tells give people a sense of comfort then I say let them. The only time it because an issue is when those people start following me around, engaging me in debates to prove that God is real and I'm going to Hell.

I think humanity needs to let go of religeon before it can completely evolve to the next stage, however I also don't think that humanity as a whole is ready.

In reguards to athiests, it's the same kind of mentality. They are comfortable living without the image of God in their heads. They don't need to be told that when they die they will go to heaven. They're juts fine believing that they will stop existing.

Back to tpoint of the debate, and the thread: Scientific evidence God exists. Personally, I say there is none. I'm very confident of that because I'm aware of the basic scientific method. I also feel the need to point out that true scientists dont' care when they're hypothesis has been proven wrong. So if you can prove to me god exists, than rock on. I still wont support religeon though, not until you prove to me that God directly made it and that humans didn't just make the crap up on the jon and write it down on leaves before it hit the big books.

[Fail]

Originally Posted by uBeR

yeah I didn't write this, BTW.

Pffff, any professor deserving of his position would have known cold is an absence of heat. 9th Grade Science.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by accrede

Christians today already pick and choose which bits of the bible to follow and what not to follow, so I' not sure where you're going with this rules from god stuff?

Without moving forward in the discussion let's agree for the moment that God does exist. If God establishes the framework of the rules those rules are constants. They are not subject to amendment, modification or deletion. Within that framework you have absolutes of right and wrong. You can pick and choose which rules (thank you free will) to follow but in doing so you violate that rule structure. Man does not get to change the rules so that the action of ignoring a rule is no longer wrong. It's always wrong.

With Atheism you have the issue of moral relativism. As the rules for them are not absolutes established outside of themselves they can be modified or changed to suit the situation. As such, something that was previously immoral can have the rules changed so that the Atheist no longer views it as being immoral.

So...how does this relate to Good and Evil? Within the framework of moral relativism it is possible to shift the rules enough for the situation so that nothing is evil. Because man does not get to shift the rules within a God framework Good and Evil would be absolutes and not subject to change by man to suit the situation.

[FrenchToast]

First off Uber, that whole story right there is pretty bullshit. It all stands on the fundamental flaw of religion, and that is everyone thinks they're right. In every religious war, the opposing side is evil. The christians are evil and the muslims are evil, for example. And yet for both sides to be evil, then neither side can have a belief in God. That means that there is no God, just a bunch of brianwashed douchebags murdering eachother for the hell of it.

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Greatest gift of all brother: free will.

Ugh. Free will is the most bullshit thing in the world. Without gettign too far off topic:

Everything we do is a result of electric signals being fired off in our brains. Those electric signals have to obey the laws and physics of the world around us. Therefore each day every moment any time you do anything, there is only one possibility for your brain to do, because of the physics being acted upon it. I'm shit at explaining this, but do you follow?

In fact, it's been shown that when being asked any question or having to make any decision, your brain makes up the decision in a heartbeat, and then you rationalize the thought later.

[Innoc]

Frenchtoast, are you suggesting that free will does not exist? Are you suggesting that we lack free will because of the constants that exist in our world?

[puppychow]

is there a difference?

[Innoc]

Well, our environment places certain restrictions on what we do and how we do it. Does an environment that restricts how things happen mean that there is no free will? You may not be able to choose how your brain functions but does the construct in which your brain functions mean that you have no free will?

[Circuitous]

Originally Posted by Innoc

Without moving forward in the discussion let's agree for the moment that God does exist. If God establishes the framework of the rules those rules are constants. They are not subject to amendment, modification or deletion. Within that framework you have absolutes of right and wrong. You can pick and choose which rules (thank you free will) to follow but in doing so you violate that rule structure. Man does not get to change the rules so that the action of ignoring a rule is no longer wrong. It's always wrong.

So, uh... we're all fairly Evil, then? Basically?

I guess this is where the concept of Forgiveness comes in, at least you Christians have that. I get to live with my mistakes. It's pretty cool though. Challenges me to do the right thing and be a good person, without some big dude hovering over my shoulder - be it God, the clergy, or whatever.

The problem is, dude, you come off as holier-than-thou in the most exact way imaginable. Like because you have God and a belief structure revolving around Him you're the only one who knows precisely what is Good and what is Evil, and no one that does not share your belief is in any way qualified to make a judgment. I don't care if that's not what you mean, it's what I get from what you say, and frankly it's pretty irritating. Demeaning. Condescending.

Basically it's you.