Ok WTF is going on in the middle east?

[o_loader]

So it's fine for Isreal to destroy lebanon's infrastructure, block roads and ports, destroy airports and kill civilians.. But not fine when a group of people who are NOT controled by the Lebanese governemnt shoot rockets.. :S

[o_|404|innoc-tpf-]

Originally Posted by Loader

So it's fine for Isreal to destroy lebanon's infrastructure, block roads and ports, destroy airports and kill civilians.. But not fine when a group of people who are NOT controled by the Lebanese governemnt shoot rockets.. :S

Invited in by the Lebanese Gov't and allowed to operated unfettered within their borders. Yes, it's ABSOLUTELY fine for Israel to attack them in my book.

[o_puppychow]

few wars have clear good guys and bad guys...espc here i think both sides are assholes.

[o_frenchtoast]

Because neither one is America.

[o_yomamashouse]

If a country has a terrorist group in it and is too useless to do anything than tough shit for them, something has to be done about them. Also, I dont buy the whole argument about them not being able to do anything, they were probably sitting on their asses and doing nothing the whole time and that is why.

Another thing that pisses me off is when people say there are no good guys or "winners" in war. They won the fucking war, THEY ARE WINNERS YOU MORON..... just had to get that one off my chest.

[o_id_]

only read the first page of this thread, so forgive me if someones already stated a similar opinion on all of this:

personally, i admire what the Israeli's are doing here. and by that, i mean im glad the SOMEONE is FINALLY sticking by their guns. they aren't sitting about trying to "settle" for what terrorists want. they made a very simple request, that request was denied, so they took action. i realize their reaction could be seen as an overreaction, but as i said before, im glad that someone has the fucking balls to walk the walk for once. from what i read in the first post, apparently the attack/abduction of the soldiers was an unprovoked attack. that in and of itself should be reason enough not to hold back until either the soldiers are returned, or one side or the other submits beforehand.

if america found itself in the same situation, we would be trying to sit there and appease the terrorists or whomever had abducted the soldiers. or in other words its what i would like to call "pussy footing" around. these people dont give a fuck about those prisoners, and guess what, the soldiers that have been abducted will probably be killed regardless of what we would do. we need to start stepping up and letting them know we arent going to take shit like this quietly.

you know what i think is on the minds of the abductors of these soldiers? i be they are thinking to themselves, "god damn, if they get that pissed off at them just being abducted, we better not kill them or they are going to sweep the streets with our asses." now whether or not thats actually what they are thinking remains to be seen. i dont want anyone to confuse me here, im not all about wiping out all of civilization aside from ourselves or whatever, but if someones going to commit an act like this, they better be ready to suffer any consequences that come along with it. my hat is off to israel.

[o_icarus]

Originally Posted by id_

you know what i think is on the minds of the abductors of these soldiers? i be they are thinking to themselves, "god damn, if they get that pissed off at them just being abducted, we better not kill them or they are going to sweep the streets with our asses." now whether or not thats actually what they are thinking remains to be seen. i dont want anyone to confuse me here, im not all about wiping out all of civilization aside from ourselves or whatever, but if someones going to commit an act like this, they better be ready to suffer any consequences that come along with it. my hat is off to israel.

I'd say it's more likely they're thinking "hehe look at them carpet bomb the civilians , this is a recruiting heaven"

[o_id_]

Originally Posted by Icarus

I'd say it's more likely they're thinking "hehe look at them carpet bomb the civilians , this is a recruiting heaven"

i dont believe they are being targeted on purpose. i also dont believe that their goal here is to kill civilians either. if that were the case, someone else would have been involved by now. i can also assure you that the other side has killed its fair share of civilians as well, so im not really sure what your point is.

[o_icarus]

My point was that the kidnappers/terrorists probably aren't shitting their pants and thinking "god damn, if they get that pissed off at them just being abducted, we better not kill them or they are going to sweep the streets with our asses."

IMO opinion they will be thinking that the killing of innocent civilians whether deliberate or by accident is on balance "a good thing". It makes isreal look bad and helps recruit the next wave of nutcase psychos for their cause.

[o_id_]

i understand what youre saying, but if thats the case then im sure both sides are probably experiencing the same thing. A kills B civilians, B civilians get angry and join the cause, B kills A civilians, A civilians get angry and join the cause. nationalism at its best.

[o_imbrifer]

Another thing that pisses me off is when people say there are no good guys or "winners" in war. They won the fucking war, THEY ARE WINNERS YOU MORON..... just had to get that one off my chest.

Who wins wars? It ain't you or me. It aint the soldiers. It isn't the taxpayers unless their country is invaded or something. Of course businesses get a lot of cheap labor out of wars, the people who control oil and water get more cash. The 'military-industrial complex' gets tons of money. The rich cash in and the taxpayers and working people of the world are made to pay with tons of money, security and their own lives.

As far as the middle east, far too many ignore the history the region. Did you know britain controlled Iraq about 100 years ago? Did you know that Isreal was forcably imposed on what was then Palastine - people who had lived there for almost 2000 years were forced from their homes and many were killed to make room for Isreal. The first Isrealies rejected coexistence for their ethnic state, and thats when the hodgepodge over there started. I was raised in a community that unquestionably supported Isreal, but once I got my hands on history books my perspective started to change.

And if you think wars over oil are bad, wait till wars over water become more prevolent.

[o_ekim]

Originally Posted by Innoc

[Hezbollah were] invited in by the Lebanese Gov't and allowed to operated unfettered within their borders.

Originally Posted by YoMamasHouse

If a country has a terrorist group in it and is too useless to do anything than tough shit for them, something has to be done about them. Also, I dont buy the whole argument about them not being able to do anything, they were probably sitting on their asses and doing nothing the whole time and that is why.

Hezbollah were formed in the mid 1980s during the Lebanese civil war to resist the occupation forces. Lebanon didn't have a central government at that time. Hezbollah weren't "invited in" by anyone. They were a Lebanese militia founded and funded with financial, military and political support from Iran and to a lesser extent Syria.

And you know what? In the nearly 20 years that Israel occupied south Lebanon they failed to dismantle Hezbollah. In fact, Israel were forced to withdraw. Would you describe the IDF as a useless military force? Do you really think the Lebanese central government and military has any more power than Israel did to force Hezbollah to disarm?

Originally Posted by id_

only read the first page of this thread, so forgive me if someones already stated a similar opinion on all of this:

personally, i admire what the Israeli's are doing here. and by that, i mean im glad the SOMEONE is FINALLY sticking by their guns. they aren't sitting about trying to "settle" for what terrorists want. they made a very simple request, that request was denied, so they took action. i realize their reaction could be seen as an overreaction, but as i said before, im glad that someone has the fucking balls to walk the walk for once.

Hellooooo. Israel has had soldiers kidnapped before. In the past they have conducted commando raids to recover them or agreed to prisoner exchanges. Those actions are, in my opinion, justified.

What is NOT justified is what Israel is doing right now, which is destroying the infrastructure of a country in collective punishment to send a "message". Hundreds of Lebanese civilians are going to die. The infrastructure of the country is being set back years. The central government (a central government which is for the most part strongly anti-Syrian and anti-Iranian [that's what we want]) is being destabilised.

All to "send a message".

And to who? To Hezbollah?

"If you attack us, we're going to kill a bunch of the civilans of the country you operate from so you can get back the level of support you had when we withdrew our occupation. We're going to destabilise your government so you can gain more power."

Great.

Originally Posted by id_

from what i read in the first post, apparently the attack/abduction of the soldiers was an unprovoked attack. that in and of itself should be reason enough not to hold back until either the soldiers are returned, or one side or the other submits beforehand.

There aren't just two "sides" here. The leaders of Lebanon are already begging for a ceasefire. They had nothing to do with the kidnappings and all they can do now is beg for mercy.

Hezbollah have indicated they are quite willing to escalate this conflict.

Originally Posted by id_

these people dont give a fuck about those prisoners,

Are you talking about Israel or Hezbollah here?

Originally Posted by id_

and guess what, the soldiers that have been abducted will probably be killed regardless of what we would do.

Actually, captured Israeli soldiers have been returned safely to Israel before. Without massive bombing raids. Without vows to set a country back by twenty years. Funny, that.

Originally Posted by id_

we need to start stepping up and letting them know we arent going to take shit like this quietly.

Escalation is exactly what this conflict doesn't need.

Originally Posted by id_

you know what i think is on the minds of the abductors of these soldiers? i be they are thinking to themselves, "god damn, if they get that pissed off at them just being abducted, we better not kill them or they are going to sweep the streets with our asses." now whether or not thats actually what they are thinking remains to be seen.

Um, if you've been paying even cursory attention to the news you'd see that Hezbollah are launching attacks on Israeli cities right now.

Originally Posted by id_

i dont want anyone to confuse me here, im not all about wiping out all of civilization aside from ourselves or whatever, but if someones going to commit an act like this, they better be ready to suffer any consequences that come along with it. my hat is off to israel.

So you hold the citizens of Lebanon accountable for Hezbollah's actions? It's OK to murder Lebanon civilans in revenge (directly by bombs and indirectly by destroying their infrastructure) for what Hezbollah did? I mean, they're all arabs, right? They're all the same under those turbans.

[o_drtom]

hezbollah, shiites, i love the names these crazy middle easterns give themselves

[o_robg]

As far as I know, Israel gave 2 days notice before launching the strikes. Lebanon did not give this. If Israel are faced with Lebanese missiles which have the range to reach Tel Aviv from Lebanon, then they have to react strongly. This is not difficult stuff.

The fact that Hezbollah do not technically represent Lebanon is neither here nor there. In real terms they represent Lebanon, as they hold the practical power in the region. That means an act of theirs can be counted an act of war. If you only count the actions of the impotent Lebanese government when deciding what Lebanon is like/doing, you'll think they're a rather nice, peaceful country. Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way any more, and if a government does not represent and control the actions of its people then its point of view regarding the world stage is basically useless.

[o_minsc]

Originally Posted by ekiM

What is NOT justified is what Israel is doing right now, which is destroying the infrastructure of a country in collective punishment to send a "message". Hundreds of Lebanese civilians are going to die. The infrastructure of the country is being set back years. The central government (a central government which is for the most part strongly anti-Syrian and anti-Iranian [that's what we want]) is being destabilised.

All to "send a message".

And to who? To Hezbollah?

"If you attack us, we're going to kill a bunch of the civilans of the country you operate from so you can get back the level of support you had when we withdrew our occupation. We're going to destabilise your government so you can gain more power."

Im sorry but this is not true. I know what foreign media is like so these misconceptions are not surprising.
Those so-called civilian targets that we hit are all used by Hizballah. The fact that we hit lebanon so hard only indicates how deep the terrorist have taken root in their country. For example the lebanese airport was hit because it was used to bring in weaponary for Hizballah and because it was feared that they will use it to take the kidnapped Israeli soldiers out of the country. in Beirut civilian buildings were hit that were used as Hizballah headquarters , weapon storage warehouses, Hizballah TV station and so on. Our airforce spread notices in beirut that told anyone not associated with Hizballah to move out of areas that are used by them because they might get hurt. You can argue about how strategically wise that is but that just goes to show you that were not trying to kill innocent people.

This is NOT and act of revenge. This war did not start because they kidnapped two soldiers and we got really pissed off. It started because Hizballah bombed several cities, attacked a military base, killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped 2. These are acts of war. When these acts are commited against a country it has a right to retaliate and defend itself. This is NOT a war against Lebanon even though it suffers much damage. This is a war against Hizballah the purpose of which to disarm them, bring back the kidnapped soldiers and prevent them from threatning us ever again.

Id be happy to answer any other questions you may have, if I can.

[mervaka]

i'm with the israelis on this one. i mean, if it were the US/UK getting all what minsc said, i'm pretty sure we'd kick shit up. it's all about how the media portrays things. there is always spin one way or the other.

[o_yomamashouse]

I was not aware all the targets were used by the Hezbollah, North American Media filtering FTL.

[mervaka]

precisely. they don't tell you what to think these days, they just omit critical information. all the news in the UK just suggests two israeli soldiers are kidnapped by the hezballah wing of the lebanese government, and that israel went fucking ape at lebanon in retaliation. from this information alone, everyone is forced to think "omg poor lebanese"

[o_|404|innoc-tpf-]

Mike, you're deranged. This twisted "through the looking glass" interpretation of "history" you lay out is sad. I am glad that the Israeli's do not share the same view as you. Why don't you come out and just admit you hate the Jewish people?

[o_puppychow]

watched syriana last night...very timely movie to watch. pretty good flick. enjoyed how no sides were picked per se..