HWguy,what are you doing with that class

[o_swat_pointman]

I say no bunny hopping for HW guy.

[o_kaxxil]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

There's class limits for Engies?

[o_kam]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

There's class limits for Engies?

Well I don't take yank leagues into consideration since it's hard to take a community that hasn't banned _special completely, seriously.

That example/generalisation applies to any class limits in league rules.

[o_cereal-killer]

For the "A fully Charge Sniper shot should kill a HW in a single shot while in the head"...

I always or almost use Sniper, and i know that i can One-Hit-Kill a HW with a HS, but it seems to have some fixs to be done:

-OHK happens like 30-50% of the time, because the 'head" location doesnt seems to be exactly on the HW head (a lil higher)..When you aim a HW try to aim somehow higher than his head, like your scratching the top of his head with your laser. However you must know that a sniper shot gets stronger ever quarter of seconds you hold your aim on the enemy, up to a second (thats why sometimes you can shot someone at the feet and OHK and sometimes not)

that brings me to another point : anatomy

even if you shoot someone in the leg, (YES, even with a shotgun), he will cry, but he won't die...

W/e

[o_ekim]

I don't think I know anyone in au/nz who finds him overpowered (our leagues limit him to 1 anyway)

Um... why do you think the limit is there? Hint: not because he's too weak.

[o_valk]

you cant nerf all classes so class limits arent needed, because soon u nerf the hwguy beyond a level of soldier and therefore all teams will run soldiers. if you do plan to nerf the hw to a level that class limits arent needed, then whats the nerf going to be on engineers? or are spys jsut going to be made stronger and then are soldiers going to be made stronger to combat the spies.. etc....

ultimately, the only nerf as such needed for the hwguy is the tracers to be removed, the conc effect enhanced (both thing sur doing so far), reducing his movement speed and his jumping abilit,y imo (and others who dont whore this site), is going to make him a standing sentry gun with less conc aim

so lets just substitute the hwguy for a sentry / soldier in games now.. cool ..

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by valk

you cant nerf all classes so class limits arent needed, because soon u nerf the hwguy beyond a level of soldier and therefore all teams will run soldiers. if you do plan to nerf the hw to a level that class limits arent needed, then whats the nerf going to be on engineers? or are spys jsut going to be made stronger and then are soldiers going to be made stronger to combat the spies.. etc....

couldnt have said it better myself. in my opinion though, whats wrong with class limits? like valk said, unless EVERY class was perfectly balanced, which probably wont happen for a long time, if at all, then people are going to put out the stronger classes. this is what class limits are for imo.

and lastly, if the HW's tracers were removed, surely people would go by the bullet hole decals that appear on whatever wall you hit as a reference instead?

[Defrag]

couldnt have said it better myself. in my opinion though, whats wrong with class limits?

If you have to limit the amount of a certain class, then the game design is inherently wrong (unless the class is intended as a single instance, such as commander or whatever [TF2]) or the game is designed with it in mind.

you cant nerf all classes so class limits arent needed, because soon u nerf the hwguy beyond a level of soldier and therefore all teams will run soldiers. if you do plan to nerf the hw to a level that class limits arent needed, then whats the nerf going to be on engineers? or are spys jsut going to be made stronger and then are soldiers going to be made stronger to combat the spies.. etc....

Or maybe people will actually play to the strength of each class for the most part. HWs are traditionally best in open areas and long hallways, ... but in TFC, they can also destroy pretty much anywhere depending on the player. I remember playing against Led when r~ played MsA. Their entire chimkey defence was on negative k/d figures (like 20/30 at lift/tsp), and Led was in the basement as HW with about 110 frags. For those that don't know, the chimkey basement has a lot of corners and hiding places, tight corridors and such -- it's what you'd think of as a position that shouldn't work as HW. The point is that a lethal TFC HW can overcome pretty much any problem to make HW work all too well regardless of position -- so.. we change the HW so that it still works, but not everywhere. This is why the whole 'nerf' argument doesn't work -- it operates on the presumption that either each class, when nerfed, will be equal to every other class in nearly every situation, or that toned-down classes will be marginalised to the point where they're not worth playing.

The whole argument that we're nerfing everything is ridiculous. It's all about relative balance and playing to the strengths of each class. It doesn't mean we're going to say "Soldiers should suck at all ranges over 3 metres, HWs shouldn't be able to operate in tight spots and demos should explode if they try to stop piping a flag/corridor", but it does mean that each class has specific roles which are more suited to it compared to others. QWTF and Q3F's HW is less mobile than TFC's and as a result you see more thought as to where the HW is used. He's less versatile, but still viable. QWTF's HW also had a heavy knockback effect to compensate.

If something sucks in practice, we'll change it. I find most of the slagging going on laughable, particularly Donny's howls of derision and accusation that we can't cap, so it's a totally personal thing. The reason Dospac was brought on to the team is that he is an allrounder and able to analyse the different facets of TFC objectively. He plays every class and can spot the patterns and relationships. I can do the same, pretty much, except I could never play soldier. The other reason he was brought onboard is that I've always expressed strong opinions about TFC's balance problems and I felt Dos could provide a contrast -- i.e. if I got carried away or hung up about a particular area, then Dos can provide another perspective on it. We essentially moderate each other, and we definitely do have differing views about certain things. We don't just sit around talking about how we should make it easier to cap.. that's just ridiculous.

[o_pussyhunter]

hwguy is fine how he is, just code into the conc grens a disable of mm1 so that the n00bs can't whine when their conc grenade didn't render the guy completely useless.


Just thought I'd add a narrow-minded view from a hw's perspective

[o_kam]

Originally Posted by Mervaka

and lastly, if the HW's tracers were removed, surely people would go by the bullet hole decals that appear on whatever wall you hit as a reference instead?

lol that's not where you're really aiming
We're talking about the single tracer that appears where the true aim is. cl_lw 0 will show true aim when conced.

That chimkey/led example sounds a bit sus netcode wise (like I mentioned before). Oh well.

[mervaka]

oh, ok lol.

well ive had another minor thought: dont the tracers obscure your opponents view of whats going on behind the HWGuy? (assuming the HW is shooting at te opponent, who is trying to get past). removing tracers would get rid of that, so you might wanna add a bigger flash or sommin to compensate

[o_ekim]

That chimkey/led example sounds a bit sus netcode wise (like I mentioned before). Oh well.

Huh. So you're just going to dismiss every issue related to HWGuy balance as being due to dodgy netcode?

[o_kam]

In a word... no.


cbf

[o_shaggy]

I believe the HW went out of balance when BH stuck it's head into the game. Yes, you may say it's balance b/c the offense can bh too. But i disagree. The fact is the Offense gets to the other teams base almost no faster then before. The reason being, today and before the bh era, they all still used concs to get from base to base. So the O really almost shows up at the same time as before. The only difference is when you finally take the fatty down, he's back in his position in no time. In the old days, once you got that fatty down, there was a huge whole in the D that would take time to fill. Not any more, which in my opinion is why the fatty is too strong and why the hw limit changed from 2 to 1.

Now how to fix it. Obviously you can't cap the hw bh at a different rate then everyone else. Although I think this would be a wonderful idea. Anyways, I'm not sure if removing the true tracer is a fair way to try and solve this problem. All it does is make it almost impossible to learn for the new guys while the pros won't really get bothered at all. Now what I would like to see done to weaken the hw class is make the class less effective in close spaces. In my opinion the reving of his gun was created to make him less effective in close spaces b/c he needed time to fire. But we got around that by keeping the gun rev the whole time. What I propose is a meter bar for the rev time. I guess it could be a meter for the AC batteries needed to rev the gun. As you rev the gun the meter slowly drops when you stop reving it slowly goes back up. And when you fire the meter holds at that point. And of course if the meter hits the bottom you cant fire b/c you cant rev. So you'll have to wait a little bit for the batties to charge up enough to rev. By doing this you cause the fatties to not be able to keep their gun reved the whole game therefore making them less effective in small areas. Of course if you dont like actually having a physical meter on the screen, you could always use sound. As you drain the batteries reving over and over you can hear the revs getting weaker and weaker. Until it stalls if you dont give it time to recoup. Anyways that's just an idea.

[o_darknight]

True tracers don't help 'noobs' at all because they don't know that they are there or know that they exist.

[Jiggles]

Yeah, I think the true tracer was really more of a bug that Valve was too lazy/careless to fix. You can learn to conc aim w/o it, and if the conc effect is different in FF, everyone will have to relearn it anyway.

HWs actually went out of balance around the new netcode period (1.5). Pretty much anyone could use him at least decently after that. Uncapped bhopping just made it much worse

I don't know about limiting his bhopping ability - it makes a fair amount of "sense," but it's a bit unfair, plus most HW positions are pretty darn close to spawns anyway, and I don't think it would help all that much.

The real reason HWs are unbalanced are their high health/armor, fast killing power at most any range, near immunity to concs, and ease of use - their mobility matters, but not much.

[o_shaggy]

That's the thing jiggles, they are suppose to be the strongest and have the best weapon. In trade off they lose alot of speed. The only prob is with bh and such the trade off isnt much. I don't want to see the hw weaken in strength. That's it's trade mark. I want to see the hw weaken in speed and mobility. And I do like the idea of a rev meter bar for the fact it's useless now. The whole round they keep it reved, and ready to fire.

[o_cereal-killer]

get their armor down to 200 and health to 125

[mervaka]

well then theyre not really heavy then, are they? just a soldier with an AC

[o_shoebacca]

I think it would be cool if the assault cannon could be upgraded during each life by an engineer. Maybe the first stage could overheat most quickly, and you would be unable to jump. Then, after a few hits by an engy, the second stage would take longer to overheat, and increased mobility would ensue. Any thoughts?