Fixing the conc effect?

[o_balls]

idd, and i dont know why people are saying "scared to learn something new?". If i was scared to learn something new, i wouldnt have spent the last 4/5 years playing clanned TFC. Im not bothered about learning a new conc affect, its just a shame imo as i dont think theres anything wrong with the current one. Yeah, maybe some visuals would be nice, but "scared to learn" is just a load of bullshit

[o_bokko]

Maybe the current pattern is too easy though? Just let the dev. team do their magic.

[o_stino]

random paht whould fix it :s

[o_balls]

i know anything i say wont change their minds bokko :P, just expressing my pov!

[o_rebo]

The devs are aware that there are two issues. The conc effect and the basic power of the hwg. They should be treated as two seperate things. If the basic power of the hwg is still broken as it is now then no matter what conc effect you use you will still have a problem.

Our strategy is to have the classes balanced without being conced then being conced should provide a sufficient challange that the majority of players will suffer a significant impedement to their aiming.

[o_skanky butterpuss]

well said.

ps sweet postcount

[o_darknight]

Imo, when hit fully by a conc I think that the first second/two should be hard to learn (by being random?), giving offy a brief chance to get past to hwguy without taking many hits. Then after that have a pattern which is 100% learnable.

Don't know if this would be possible or work. But it's a nice idea in my head...

[o_sh4x]

yup, nice idea.

[o_skanky butterpuss]

that sounds like a pretty good idea to me, darknight. it also kinda led my mind down another path...


i dont think this is the case in tfc (and if it is, oops), but i think it would be cool if the conc effect were stronger (maybe longer duration of time spent in random mode as darknight's suggestion) when you were closer to the center of the blast than if you were just barely caught with the rim of it. this would make timing a bit more important and a bit more rewarding if you time it correctly. it also seems a bit more logical since that is how normal grens work, but thats neither here nor there.

[o_kaxxil]

also : it's not hard at all to tone down the conc effect for offensive players. Hell, you don't even get a conc effect in tfc if it's a friendly conc for example. It's not outside of the dev's team reach to change the effect for D and O.

The guy above me has a good point : What about a compromise of making the conc effect more powerful when it's directly AT you, (relative to what it does in TFC anyway) and making it less powerful if you simply get hit a billion miles away from it? You shouldn't have the pain of a full conc when it's thrown in the middle of the entire enemy D. It's only not a problem currently, because it's just an illusion.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by ekiM

I'm interested in what "otherwise" is.

Well, for example you could have sort of an "enlarged cone of fire" effect, whereby, when you fire, your shots don't go exactly where you're aiming. Nothing insane, but significant enough not to be negligable.

Originally Posted by ekiM

Hey I conced you so now no mater how good you are you're screwed. And changing the conc effect would do that to every class. Not fun.

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Because I don't want it 100% learnable doesn't follow that it will be 0% learnable.

Originally Posted by ekiM

Scout and medic are the two most used offensive classes because of their speed + concs. I can't see them not being used in a similar role in FF. If the conc effect really screws over HWGuys they will be pretty useless because 90%+ of attackers have concs to use on them.

More exaggeration. Of course I don't want the conc effect to "really screw over HWGuys." I want it to affect them at least somewhat, as opposed to not at all currently.

Also, I seriously hope 90%+ of all attackers will not be Meds/Scouts in FF. That is one of the dullest points in TFC. Don't get me wrong, both classes are a lot of fun to play, but playing almost exclusively Medic/Scout for 5 years (in a clan) gets old.

3 Med + 1 Scout or 4 Med Os being the norm, I would think, would be extremely boring for D players. I guess not though.

Originally Posted by rebo

Our strategy is to have the classes balanced without being conced then being conced should provide a sufficient challange that the majority of players will suffer a significant impedement to their aiming.

That's basically what I want. So...great!

[o_ekim]

Enlarged cone of fire would work but doesn't make much sense. I'm concussed so my firearm operate gets a bigger spread? Hmm...

Either way I'm not at all sold on non-learnable conc effect being a good thing. If I'm reading right the reason you think the conc should have some non-learnable aspect is because the HWGuy is too strong? Then the problem is that the HWGuy is too strong, not that the conc effect is learnable. So, yeah..

If saying the HWGuy is not at all affected by concs isn't exaggeration, I don't know what is. Even the best conc-aimer is not perfect. Take away the "true tracer" and even a lot of good HWGuys would be sunk.

Meds and scouts make up the majority of offences because they can make attacks so quickly. A medic can probably make 3 runs in the time a slower class could make one. Unless other classes recieve serious buffs that make them far more effective on offense I can't really see why this would change in FF clanplay. All irrelevent to this thread however..

Originally Posted by Jiggles

That's basically what I want. So...great!

Weird, that's what I want too! It's almost like rebo was being intentionally noncommital...

[o_kaxxil]

Originally Posted by ekiM

Enlarged cone of fire would work but doesn't make much sense. I'm concussed so my firearm operate gets a bigger spread? Hmm...

maybe but it is tfc so who cares. If it works it works : we don't have to make retarded realism justifications here. we're above that

--
also you really shouldn't expect offensive patterns to change much if at all. You'd have to do something (fairly) drastic like make grenades have a much larger push / smaller damage / larger push-back radius so heavy O could drop-gren-jump to make it work for most maps. That or make HH nade jumps less damaging, but that might prove to help defense unnessicarily.

The biggest problem for heavy O is the yard, if a medic and scout can clear it 4-5 times faster then you can (minus fairly heavily damaging explosion based jumps which might put you at the health of said medic) you're not gonna be of much use to your team.

If for some reason a map maker made the attack route incredibly short, you'd see HWGUY / Solly / Demo / Etc O all the time, but that would be a retarded spamfest really.

If you think this warrents a full discussion a new thread should be made though.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by ekiM

Enlarged cone of fire would work but doesn't make much sense. I'm concussed so my firearm operate gets a bigger spread? Hmm...

Well, if you want a justification: I imagine one would have a tad bit of trouble after being hit by something like a conc. Trouble aiming, in addition to trouble seeing. If you wanted to be realistic, you'd probably have major equilibrium and hearing problems for a while I bet that would be fun

And maybe I wasn't quite clear: it's not a "bigger spread" so much as it would fire randomly anywhere inside that cone - basically simulating your inability to aim accurately after being hit by a conc, without actually forcing your aim to move, which as you said, sucks.

Originally Posted by ekiM

If I'm reading right the reason you think the conc should have some non-learnable aspect is because the HWGuy is too strong? Then the problem is that the HWGuy is too strong, not that the conc effect is learnable. So, yeah..

The HWGuy is too strong. I'm not debating that. Some nerfs in strength will likely be necessary.

But part of the reason why he is so strong is that he is pretty much the easiest class to ignore the conc effect with. A soldier too, at close range, but at a distance, neither rocket aim nor ssg aim is nearly as easy as AC aim while conced.

Concs are very useful tools for mobility, but I feel it's a bit of a shame that they're mostly useless for their "original" (or whatever you want to call it) purpose. Plus, it's rather confusing to the new player when, after figuring out what the conc does, he concs an experienced player, and it does virtually nothing.

Originally Posted by ekiM

If saying the HWGuy is not at all affected by concs isn't exaggeration, I don't know what is. Even the best conc-aimer is not perfect. Take away the "true tracer" and even a lot of good HWGuys would be sunk.

Correct. However, the skilled HWs (the ones that don't rely on the tracers anyway) are good enough that throwing a conc on them is virtually always a waste, as compared to trying to conc past them. If you think you can conc them out of position, then great. But like I said, most HWs don't make that easy.

Originally Posted by ekiM

Meds and scouts make up the majority of offences because they can make attacks so quickly. A medic can probably make 3 runs in the time a slower class could make one. Unless other classes recieve serious buffs that make them far more effective on offense I can't really see why this would change in FF clanplay. All irrelevent to this thread however..

Not that this topic is that relevent anyway
It's rather obvious why Medics and Scouts make up most every O. I'm saying that's boring, and should change.

Originally Posted by ekiM

Weird, that's what I want too! It's almost like rebo was being intentionally noncommital...

Probably :P
Still, there's really no certainty until they get in some major playtesting. And even after it's released there will need to be more balancing.

[o_sh4x]

Concs are very useful tools for mobility, but I feel it's a bit of a shame that they're mostly useless for their "original" (or whatever you want to call it) purpose. Plus, it's rather confusing to the new player when, after figuring out what the conc does, he concs an experienced player, and it does virtually nothing.

What makes you think that the "conc effect that moves your screen around" is the "original"/dominant/most-important and has to have something over the "conc effect that pushes".

Weren't both effects always in? So why one over the other?

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

What makes you think that the "conc effect that moves your screen around" is the "original"/dominant/most-important and has to have something over the "conc effect that pushes".

Weren't both effects always in? So why one over the other?

It's not an issue of one over the other. It's just that the "conc effect that moves your screen around" has greatly dimminished in value as a fairly large population of players realized it was merely an illusion, and how to mitigate it's effects.

Hence the reason I put "original" in quotes, and included the parenthetical phrase "or whatever you want to call it"

Calling it the "conc effect that moves your screen around" is rather cumbersome

[o_norris]

Well i stopped playing HWGuy and changed back to Off Medic because of the 'well-known' and 'used' tracers. It's no challange anymore to aim conced nowadays. Just look through the servers and you'll find random schtop fd hwguys (probably conced ~15 of 30mins) that do regulary over 90 kills. Which they probably could only do 50 without the tracer.

I'm not saying i didn't used them in the past. I've learned alot from the tracer and I'm still halfway capable of this class even if i didn't played it in months which shouldn't be possible imo.

rebo/mirv: how about you add this plugin to the etab thingy? Would be interessting to see how much it effects the euro community!

[o_valk]

yeh id really like to see that added to etab
would greatly change australian tfc too, as we also use the latest etab

[o_balls]

in all honesty, HW true tracers actually put me off... im more used to working it out properly (ie. ssg). For example, when it comes to playing HW, i tend to aim using the tracers rather than i would with ssg, and i usually do worse (im thinking so much about the tracers i disregard how its actually working).

Lat was telling me he gets the same thing, so now he just disables tracers all together (which is what im also going to do). Its a strange logic, but its true.

[o_ekim]

I have had tracers turned off since forever. One learns faster that way.