Man shoots students at an Amish school. - Page 4

o_uber · 10-03-2006, 03:37 AM

Well, as stated in my previous posted I actually did visit the site. I failed to notice the fine print, however. What's funny though is that the stories all span over several increments of years. I mean is that about only every other year has one story. I;m sure you could find thousands of these occuring since the 1960s, but I'm sure you could fine just as many since start of the new millennium.

Quote:

Only way to do that is if you have weapons that have equal fire-power to the current military, because in the case of a civil-revolt, the military will likely be used to suppress it.

You do realize this requires for our citizens to have an arsenal including, but not limited to, machine guns, black hawk helicopters, tanks, bazookas, RPGs, and even nuclear weapons?

o_frenchtoast · 10-03-2006, 03:48 AM

...and that's why it's never going to happen. Well, until the US implodes.

Jiggles · 10-03-2006, 04:28 AM

I'm hardly anti-gun, but I've met a whole lot of people over the years - people who I'm very glad aren't packin' heat.

o_bumgravy · 10-03-2006, 04:34 AM

I live in scotland (Thats in the UK btw)

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.gun-control-network.org/PR07.htm

Nearly 10 years ago, the terrible shootings at Dunblane Primary School shook the nation and the world. A tide of revulsion against guns was let loose and in its aftermath a seminal piece of legislation was enacted – a ban on the civilian ownership of handguns.

In 1996 the gun lobby claimed that shooting with handguns was the fastest growing sport in the country. Without Dunblane and the handgun ban we would live in a very different country. Handguns would have proliferated and, if America is anything to go by, so too would gun injury and death.

The connection between the availability of guns and their misuse is clear and compelling. By criminalizing handguns we have ensured that gun deaths have remained low by international standards. For example, the gun homicide rate in England and Wales is 40 times smaller than the rate in USA.

We have also ensured that no legal handgun owner will ever commit such an outrage as the massacre of 16 children and their teacher. Since nearly all mass shootings, especially where the perpetrator takes his own life, are committed by legal gun owners (Hungerford, Montreal, Zug, Erfurt, and various places in the USA) we have also statistically reduced the risk of such a tragedy happening again.

Mick North whose daughter Sophie was killed by Thomas Hamilton on 13 March 1996 says “I have no doubt that had it not been possible for Hamilton legally to own guns simply for the purpose of target shooting that he would never have thought through or carried out his crime.”

So, Innoc, aside from the arguments about citizens protecting themselves in their own homes etc, how many schools in america have been shot up since 1999, because after our ban on guns it hasnt happened over here. Stat me up.

o_the russian · 10-03-2006, 04:36 AM

check out this government site http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5415a1.htm

it details crime rates for cities and internationaly...

I was reading an article somewhere but I forget where, I'm beating myself up for this because I needed a source but trust me, i spent 20 min searching through my history and couldnt find what page I went to... anyhow, the artical in question used the international violent crime statistics and then linked to the government page that had them and now I cant find the goddamn page because I dont know where the news story that it was linked from lead me to... grr

ok, enough of that diatribe... what I wanted to point out is that the US already has gun control laws that are beyond what other nations have... as in Canada, where its much easier to aquire and posses firearms, and having more firearms per capita than the US, yet theyre crime rate involving firearms doesnt even make the top 20 nations. Sadly, it is my former country which takes the #1 position for gun deaths and that is Russian, and the US is #2... same for illegal weapon possesion related arrests and imprisonment, Russian #1, US #2... #3-5 I remember were former Ugoslavian and South African countries... and even Columbia with its drug cartels was so far down the ladder that one could say its ridiculous to hold a light up to US and admire our people... Fucking Mexico City with its rampant violence and corrupt police had less deaths from gun violence per capita than the US... its a statistic flaunted by the current socialist leader of venezuala and Castro's brother frequently...

my point is... its cultural... gun control plays a role but it is deffinately cultural... the hitch is in Russia the majority of that crime is mob related while in the US its not organized crime related yet still very high so, I dont know how to explain.

there is a ton of factors in our culture that encourage gunplay and encourage disregard for the importance of others on a level of human beings... and this has nothing to do with religious morrality and more with decensitising... I personaly blame media saturation for making this kind of violence seem commonplace...

The outbreak of Columbine-inspired acts didnt happen till it was popularised by media and quoted by every politician...

for the sake of humanity, people need to stop watching news and start reading it, so they dont have to sit and observe human suffering between their car commercials... which only makes it seem more accepted and commonplace...

as long as it is portrayed as normal to have intra-personal relationships deteriorating then our own intra-personal relationships will deteriorate... it will be acceptable to hate your father and not be able to explain why or abandon your family or kills your siblings or classmates... theres a front page, a book, a court room, a TV news report and a law waiting to publicize you! And for as long as we encourage popularity above everything while at the same time popularising these acts... our killers will get younger and younger and more numerous... I'm moving to fucking canada or sweden and I swore to that long ago... I think we can all agree that we live in a culture of encouraged exploitation, and to assume that the exploited are going to mimmic their exploiters is as rational as evolution... for as long as we are exploited for profits we will exploit for attention because thats what we're encouraged to do by every capitalistic facet of our lives... and humanity goes out the window

oh, which reminds me... we have the worlds lowest age for people involved in gun related homicides, both male and female...

to add salt to our wound we allso have that statistic table at the bottom of the government survey that shows us that "unexplained" death is higher than homicide, and suicide is higher than homicide... and all 3 are higher in our fucking country than a list of a dozen on this report... the only dissadvantage is that this govt report only goes to 2003 and is not as thurough as the one the other news story had which actualy listed arrests and imprisonment rates.

o_bumgravy · 10-03-2006, 04:50 AM

Coulda just said

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

God bless America.

o_the russian · 10-03-2006, 04:58 AM

yes but then I'd be spewing right-wing fascist propaganda and encouraging the belief in fairy tales :P ... and theres no statistics table in the world to decide if a proposed world creator had blessed america anymore than an ant-hill in kenya for the fact that we thump our bibles and dont put things in our anus.

o_uber · 10-03-2006, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Russian

The outbreak of Columbine-inspired acts didnt happen till it was popularised by media and quoted by every politician...

To blame violence, or even school shootings, on the media is naive. One of the most deadly school shootings in America cannot simply be a side article on the fourth page. We need to expose the core of the issue, rather than just trying to ignore it altogether.

P.S. More deadly school shootings have been occuring before the Columbine attack.

o_the russian · 10-03-2006, 05:02 AM

I would suggest to simply have an updating database of news like a US-wide RSS feed that you could opt in to view, where if you didnt care about the the slaying of a pre-pubescent beauty queen, you wouldnt have to stare at crime footage for an hour and listen to experts that lived on the opposite side of the country talk about how it was the father, brother, mother or aliens while their academic credentials flash on the screen and the announcer interrupts them for commercial breaks...

o_uber · 10-03-2006, 05:05 AM

Yeah, change the channel.

o_the russian · 10-03-2006, 05:08 AM

whats the point, its on that channel too.. and in my morning newspaper and on the radio (even the channels dedicated to strictly entertainment, they make entertainment out of tragedy)... and in 5 weeks after the media has finished their roundup of possible virtual-suspects in the court of public-oppinion, I will hear about how my legislature tacked on an extra year in prison for this type of nich crime and why scools A-B-C- and F are banning pencil sharpeners and encouraging parents to boycott schools that didnt bann them...

o_bumgravy · 10-03-2006, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uBeR

To blame violence, or even school shootings, on the media is naive. One of the most deadly school shootings in America cannot simply be a side article on the fourth page. We need to expose the core of the issue, rather than just trying to ignore it altogether.

How about putting the guns down while your exposing this core issue? You americans are so scared someones going to break into your house and steal the twenny bux under your matress you will happily sit back and watch your fellow LEGAL arm bearers massacre the innocent on CNN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uBeR

P.S. More deadly school shootings have been occuring before the Columbine attack.

As many have thereafter, but not in this town, we did the sensible thing and gave our guns to the cops.

Just because your country was founded on the slaughter of the natives with projectile weapons does not mean every citizen thereafter should have the right to walk the land with loaded guns. Fuck the constitution.

o_uber · 10-03-2006, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BumGravy

How about putting the guns down while your exposing this core issue? You americans are so scared someones going to break into your house and steal the twenny bux under your matress you will happily sit back and watch your fellow LEGAL arm bearers massacre the innocent on CNN.

Just because your country was founded on the slaughter of the natives with projectile weapons does not mean every citizen thereafter should have the right to walk the land with loaded guns. Fuck the constitution.

Well if you actually referred to any of my posts, you would have noticed I'm against the 'put a gun in every persons hand' idea nor do I own a gun. Your generalizations and banality does not impress.

o_bumgravy · 10-03-2006, 05:26 AM

Sorry uBeR I misunderstood your last post, although I stand by my generalisations and banality regardless of impression.

o_theres *nothing* here · 10-03-2006, 05:43 AM

Hey hey, I wouldn't mind having a gun. I would have to admit something like that does make me feel safe. But I ain't gonna go on no screaming rampage.
A baseball bat does fine too- but, how you gonna match if that other guy has a gun?

That's exactly what drives people to buy guns. Everyone has guns! That means, if I want to protect myself, I must have guns as well.

Seriously, it ain't so hard to figure out. People are fucked up, kay? This is the world we live in, so don't go crying over every little shitless thing. Shit happens.

Wanna solve the problem? Take away the guns. You can get the back when you play nice. But I guess you could always pretend, so that you get your toys back. Do you see what I mean? Lessons can't be learned just like that.

We're human, and the problem lies within us.

It is, sad really. I mean, pathetic sad, no "boo hoo" sad, kay? It's fucking sad how we humans live.

Sometimes I wish I were able to have the ability to see what I see. Here's to individuality. You get dumbasses from every end of the spectrum. It's even worse when those people preach about it. Everyone, STFUplskthxbai.

You guys watch "The Matrix"? What was that thing that the agent said..? "When I was asked to classify humans.. blah blah.."

Okay, fuck it, I found it on google. It's amazing what people do with their spare time.

Quote:

I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

BTW Backstaber, I hope you did read FT's reply to your post. He couldn't really have put it any better. But I'd like to add, that nobody is every going to overthrow your government. And it's not because you don't have guns.

o_kbomb · 10-03-2006, 12:18 PM

I am a little confused by the flow of the conversation here - Innoc, are you saying there are roughly an equal amount of instances in which a gun protects someone as a gun hurts someone on the news?

This isn't a flame or anything, I am just not sure if that is what you are saying.

o_|404|innoc-tpf- · 10-03-2006, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kbomb

I am a little confused by the flow of the conversation here - Innoc, are you saying there are roughly an equal amount of instances in which a gun protects someone as a gun hurts someone on the news?

This isn't a flame or anything, I am just not sure if that is what you are saying.

No, I am saying that far MORE situations occur where the ownership of a gun foiled the criminals than where the ownership of the gun caused the tragedy. The absence of a gun in protecting civilians is far more of a problem than having a gun ever is. Statistically, as has been pointed out ITT already, places where gun ownership is protected and gun laws affirm the right to carry crime is lower. If you're depending on Law Enforcement to save you you're wasting your time. Law enforcement does not, typically, perform that function. Most of their work is coming in after the fact to find out what happened.

Uber, you're wrong about more school attacks happening before Columbine. More happened AFTER Columbine. The number of school massacres were far fewer prior to Columbine and had much more time between incidents. The further you go back in history the less restrictions on firearms...fewer massacres. Why? It certainly wasn't due to guns being unavailable. So why more now? I stand by my statement about the decline of civilization, the family. We're almost like Lemmings...

o_puppychow · 10-03-2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by |404|Innoc-TPF-

No, I am saying that far MORE situations occur where the ownership of a gun foiled the criminals than where the ownership of the gun caused the tragedy. The absence of a gun in protecting civilians is far more of a problem than having a gun ever is. Statistically, as has been pointed out ITT already, places where gun ownership is protected and gun laws affirm the right to carry crime is lower.

I disagree with that 100%. I think its the case where people make statistics work for THIER side, whichever that is.

For example:

A 2003 study in the US showed that having a gun in the home increases the risk of someone in the household being murdered by 41%.

Does a Gun in the Home Make You Safer?
"No. Despite claims by the National Rifle Association (NRA) that you need a gun in your home to protect yourself and your family, public health research demonstrates that the person most likely to shoot you or a family member with a gun already has the keys to your house. Simply put: guns kept in the home for self-protection are more often used to kill somebody you know than to kill in self-defense; 22 times more likely, according to a 1998 study by the Journal of Trauma.[1] More kids, teenagers and adult family members are dying from firearms in their own home than criminal intruders. When someone is home, a gun is used for protection in fewer than two percent of home invasion crimes.[2] You may be surprised to know that, in 1999, according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, there were only 154 justifiable homicides committed by private citizens with a firearm compared with a total of 8,259 firearm murders in the United States. Once a bullet leaves a gun, who is to say that it will stop only a criminal and not a family member? Yet at every opportunity the NRA uses the fear of crime to promote the need for ordinary citizens to keep guns in their home for self-protection. Furthermore, the NRA continues to oppose life-saving measures that require safe-storage of guns in the home."

A Gun in the Home: Key Facts

From 1990-1998, two-thirds of spouse and ex-spouse murder victims were killed with guns.[6]
Guns are the weapon of choice for troubled individuals who commit suicide. In 1999, firearms were used in 16,599 suicide deaths in America. Among young people under 20, one committed suicide with a gun every eight hours.[7]
A gun in the home also increases the likelihood of an unintentional shooting, particularly among children. Unintentional shootings commonly occur when children find an adult's loaded handgun in a drawer or closet, and while playing with it shoot themselves, a sibling or a friend. The unintentional firearm-related death rate for children 0-14 years old is NINE times higher in the U.S. than in the 25 other countries combined.[8]

o_lithium · 10-03-2006, 02:08 PM

SAD EVENTS TURNED INTO POLITICAL DEBATE , WOOOOOOOO. You guys need to calm the feck down.

o_puppychow · 10-03-2006, 02:16 PM

ur naive if u thought it wouldnt. it's a messageboard. people TALK.

10-03-2006, 04:36 AM	#65
o_the russian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	check out this government site http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5415a1.htm it details crime rates for cities and internationaly... I was reading an article somewhere but I forget where, I'm beating myself up for this because I needed a source but trust me, i spent 20 min searching through my history and couldnt find what page I went to... anyhow, the artical in question used the international violent crime statistics and then linked to the government page that had them and now I cant find the goddamn page because I dont know where the news story that it was linked from lead me to... grr ok, enough of that diatribe... what I wanted to point out is that the US already has gun control laws that are beyond what other nations have... as in Canada, where its much easier to aquire and posses firearms, and having more firearms per capita than the US, yet theyre crime rate involving firearms doesnt even make the top 20 nations. Sadly, it is my former country which takes the #1 position for gun deaths and that is Russian, and the US is #2... same for illegal weapon possesion related arrests and imprisonment, Russian #1, US #2... #3-5 I remember were former Ugoslavian and South African countries... and even Columbia with its drug cartels was so far down the ladder that one could say its ridiculous to hold a light up to US and admire our people... Fucking Mexico City with its rampant violence and corrupt police had less deaths from gun violence per capita than the US... its a statistic flaunted by the current socialist leader of venezuala and Castro's brother frequently... my point is... its cultural... gun control plays a role but it is deffinately cultural... the hitch is in Russia the majority of that crime is mob related while in the US its not organized crime related yet still very high so, I dont know how to explain. there is a ton of factors in our culture that encourage gunplay and encourage disregard for the importance of others on a level of human beings... and this has nothing to do with religious morrality and more with decensitising... I personaly blame media saturation for making this kind of violence seem commonplace... The outbreak of Columbine-inspired acts didnt happen till it was popularised by media and quoted by every politician... for the sake of humanity, people need to stop watching news and start reading it, so they dont have to sit and observe human suffering between their car commercials... which only makes it seem more accepted and commonplace... as long as it is portrayed as normal to have intra-personal relationships deteriorating then our own intra-personal relationships will deteriorate... it will be acceptable to hate your father and not be able to explain why or abandon your family or kills your siblings or classmates... theres a front page, a book, a court room, a TV news report and a law waiting to publicize you! And for as long as we encourage popularity above everything while at the same time popularising these acts... our killers will get younger and younger and more numerous... I'm moving to fucking canada or sweden and I swore to that long ago... I think we can all agree that we live in a culture of encouraged exploitation, and to assume that the exploited are going to mimmic their exploiters is as rational as evolution... for as long as we are exploited for profits we will exploit for attention because thats what we're encouraged to do by every capitalistic facet of our lives... and humanity goes out the window oh, which reminds me... we have the worlds lowest age for people involved in gun related homicides, both male and female... to add salt to our wound we allso have that statistic table at the bottom of the government survey that shows us that "unexplained" death is higher than homicide, and suicide is higher than homicide... and all 3 are higher in our fucking country than a list of a dozen on this report... the only dissadvantage is that this govt report only goes to 2003 and is not as thurough as the one the other news story had which actualy listed arrests and imprisonment rates. Last edited by o_the russian; 10-03-2006 at 04:49 AM.

10-03-2006, 03:48 AM	#62
o_frenchtoast Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Markham, Ontario, Canada! Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	...and that's why it's never going to happen. Well, until the US implodes.

10-03-2006, 04:28 AM	#63
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I'm hardly anti-gun, but I've met a whole lot of people over the years - people who I'm very glad aren't packin' heat.

10-03-2006, 04:58 AM	#67
o_the russian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	yes but then I'd be spewing right-wing fascist propaganda and encouraging the belief in fairy tales :P ... and theres no statistics table in the world to decide if a proposed world creator had blessed america anymore than an ant-hill in kenya for the fact that we thump our bibles and dont put things in our anus.

10-03-2006, 05:02 AM	#69
o_the russian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I would suggest to simply have an updating database of news like a US-wide RSS feed that you could opt in to view, where if you didnt care about the the slaying of a pre-pubescent beauty queen, you wouldnt have to stare at crime footage for an hour and listen to experts that lived on the opposite side of the country talk about how it was the father, brother, mother or aliens while their academic credentials flash on the screen and the announcer interrupts them for commercial breaks...

10-03-2006, 05:05 AM	#70
o_uber Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Yeah, change the channel.

10-03-2006, 05:08 AM	#71
o_the russian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	whats the point, its on that channel too.. and in my morning newspaper and on the radio (even the channels dedicated to strictly entertainment, they make entertainment out of tragedy)... and in 5 weeks after the media has finished their roundup of possible virtual-suspects in the court of public-oppinion, I will hear about how my legislature tacked on an extra year in prison for this type of nich crime and why scools A-B-C- and F are banning pencil sharpeners and encouraging parents to boycott schools that didnt bann them...

10-03-2006, 05:26 AM	#74
o_bumgravy Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Sorry uBeR I misunderstood your last post, although I stand by my generalisations and banality regardless of impression.

10-03-2006, 12:18 PM	#76
o_kbomb Join Date: May 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I am a little confused by the flow of the conversation here - Innoc, are you saying there are roughly an equal amount of instances in which a gun protects someone as a gun hurts someone on the news? This isn't a flame or anything, I am just not sure if that is what you are saying.

10-03-2006, 02:08 PM	#79
o_lithium Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	SAD EVENTS TURNED INTO POLITICAL DEBATE , WOOOOOOOO. You guys need to calm the feck down.

10-03-2006, 02:16 PM	#80
o_puppychow Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Washington DC Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	ur naive if u thought it wouldnt. it's a messageboard. people TALK.

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