Snipers! They don't belong.

[Bridget]

Name one gimmick with Soldier. I can name one with Medic: perma-infection

[VentuSag3]

Define gimmick.

[Bridget]

Well, my usage may be incorrect, but something that makes the class cheap to play. Something that gives it a bad reputation, not something you would expect for such a 'balanced class'.

[Elmo]

nail gren

I'm actually with you on this topic Bridget (for the most part), I'm just being an ass and saying something with soldier that's not ideal.

sqeek, where did we discuss sniper previously (with that image you posted) I couldn't find it...

[Credge]

A correction I'd like to make.

The medic is the most balanced Offensive class in the game in CTF.

The soldier is the most balanced Defensive class in all game modes.

The only reason the soldier sees more use than other classes is because he can play in spots that others can not. This isn't to say that he's the best defensive class, the demoman or engineer are, however, he's pretty important. The heavy fits in there as well on some maps.

The only classes that don't really 'fit in' with the rest of the game are the pyro and sniper. The sniper is a long range defensive class (yes, he can be used offensively, but so can the demoman and soldier) when the most effective, fun, and important combat takes place in the short to medium range. He also has terrible health and armor while having no secondary grenade. The pyro has the makings of a D breaking O class but the area denial skills of a defensive class. He doesn't fit either.

The biggest problem with the sniper is that he's most effective 5 feet out of his spawn on most maps while on defense.

[GenghisTron]

A defensive soldier is the backbone of defense, and they're definitely not overpowered (Well, maybe as Elmo said, the nail grenade, but that's basically a non-issue considering how few and short-lived they are). One rocket deals 102 damage, and the soldier has 4 of them, so he has to make them count, because at any moment he could have anywhere from 1-4 offense coming his way. If you're talking about pub play, soldiers MIGHT be a little overpowered, but then at that point you're basing your judgment of the game on false platitudes. Pub play =/= balanced play, nor should it.

Since this thread is about Snipers, I'd figure I'd make a quick comparison. A 'non-charged' sniper shot deals 45 damage, and is multiplied by the amount of time it's charged (1-7 seconds). He also has 75 of these shots, that travel nearly instantly, and the internal cooldown on another shot is only .6 seconds, and the sniper doesn't have to reload.

[Elmo]

xpress is a good example of getting annoyed at a sniper you can't do anything with... remember his range isn't long... it's pretty much infinite

[Credge]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Since this thread is about Snipers, I'd figure I'd make a quick comparison. A 'non-charged' sniper shot deals 45 damage, and is multiplied by the amount of time it's charged (1-7 seconds). He also has 75 of these shots, that travel nearly instantly, and the internal cooldown on another shot is only .6 seconds, and the sniper doesn't have to reload.

The way you word it, the sniper sounds like an amazing class.

The only thing amazing about him is his ability to ruin games.

[Bridget]

Side note, there's this thread about Sniper too.

[SSCUJO]

the reason its over there is becasue i do NOT want ideas from pub players, i've heard every pub player idea six times over, i want to hear something new and fresh from pickup and league players about how the class can work in League play, not pub play.

maybe it will lead to something that can work for both or atleast in pub.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

the reason its over there is becasue i do NOT want ideas from pub players, i've heard every pub player idea six times over, i want to hear something new and fresh from pickup and league players about how the class can work in League play, not pub play.

maybe it will lead to something that can work for both or atleast in pub.

Not every pub player is going to rattle off the same idea. Besides, this idea that the game runs through a filter of the 'league scene' is what is killing this community. The Sniper is ignored in competitive play because competitive players are skilled enough in other classes and wouldn't limit themselves to such a nub-class. They want action, not repetitive 'snipe me out the yard' bullshit. Why have base defense when you have a Sniper? Why play at all in a competitive scene with a Sniper? It ruins more than just the game, it robs any fun out of the experience (except for the Sniper, of course, HA HA.) and kills any action.

The idea that consulting the 'league scene' will come to a solution that will accommodate public players is comical to say the least. Solutions from the competitive scene are what have totally ruined this game patch by patch for beginners and new players. The Sentry Gun was ace when I joined in 2.0 then it progressively went to shit after that. The Engineer is the #1 beginner friendly class. You drop a gun and support it. Not anymore. You gotta babysit that bitch now, all because the 'competitive players' who are supposed to be 'so pro' complained it was too powerful.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Credge

The way you word it, the sniper sounds like an amazing class.

I didn't try and make it 'sound' like anything, I was simply reciting actual facts about the class.

[SSCUJO]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Not every pub player is going to rattle off the same idea. Besides, this idea that the game runs through a filter of the 'league scene' is what is killing this community. The Sniper is ignored in competitive play because competitive players are skilled enough in other classes and wouldn't limit themselves to such a nub-class. They want action, not repetitive 'snipe me out the yard' bullshit. Why have base defense when you have a Sniper? Why play at all in a competitive scene with a Sniper? It ruins more than just the game, it robs any fun out of the experience (except for the Sniper, of course, HA HA.) and kills any action.

The idea that consulting the 'league scene' will come to a solution that will accommodate public players is comical to say the least. Solutions from the competitive scene are what have totally ruined this game patch by patch for beginners and new players. The Sentry Gun was ace when I joined in 2.0 then it progressively went to shit after that. The Engineer is the #1 beginner friendly class. You drop a gun and support it. Not anymore. You gotta babysit that bitch now, all because the 'competitive players' who are supposed to be 'so pro' complained it was too powerful.

listen, everyone is out of ideas, there have been dozens of sniper threads, none coming to a fix. every idea is the same except for a few tweaks, another idea thread with the same people responding time and time again is not what is needed.

i asked a full pickup of players if they thought the sniper was overpowered or if they thought it was useless. they all said it was useless. it has potential, they don't avoid it cuse its too good, they avoid it cuse its not good enough.

and i figure you would have figured out by the processes this game takes to develop that an idea created in a thread like that would never ever actually be put into the game, the whole point was to see what people who never talk about the sniper have to say, maybe there is one small idea out of a list of changes that might be something that could be used. but im tired of listening to the same people saying the samethings, the only peopole who havn't chimed in are the league players.

[Bridget]

The pub is where Sniper is a problem, so you're wasting your time.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

but then at that point you're basing your judgment of the game on false platitudes. Pub play =/= balanced play, nor should it.

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

the reason its over there is becasue i do NOT want ideas from pub players, i've heard every pub player idea six times over, i want to hear something new and fresh from pickup and league players about how the class can work in League play, not pub play.

QFT

Seriously, fuck these pub players. The devs have been generous enough to let them play in the first place, yet all they do is come in here and complain about balance when they're not even playing in the leagues! Just because new players can download this mod for free, doesn't mean they deserve to. I think it's high time we ban pub play altogether, introduce a more stringent application process for pickups, and get this game off the ground. That's the only way we're going to see any progress around here.

[Elmo]

thanks for one of the most useless posts thus far childsanity

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

QFT

Seriously, fuck these pub players. The devs have been generous enough to let them play in the first place, yet all they do is come in here and complain about balance when they're not even playing in the leagues! Just because new players can download this mod for free, doesn't mean they deserve to. I think it's high time we ban pub play altogether, introduce a more stringent application process for pickups, and get this game off the ground. That's the only way we're going to see any progress around here.

Typical reaction from a pubber. The game isn't played correctly in a pub. Please, tell me why we should listen to cries about game balance from people who are playing the game incorrectly?

[Elmo]

that's kinda closed minded but I wouldn't want to say your that incorrect. But if you consider pub is just another way of playing the same game - I'm still happy to hear the ideas they have for this game.

I like to think can work to compromise.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Typical reaction from a pubber. The game isn't played correctly in a pub. Please, tell me why we should listen to cries about game balance from people who are playing the game incorrectly?

So according to you, pub play is never correct. Since AvD basically never happens outside a pub, does this mean AvD is "incorrect"?

I think you forget that there's more to FF than just league CTF. Pub CTF is a nightmare and always has been. AvD used to be balanced once upon a time back in TFC and early FF. You've stated a couple times now that pub input is irrelevant, but when talking about changes that can break a game mode heavily, I don't understand this attitude.

I mean I can think of a lot of balance changes needed, but I wouldn't want league play completely sacrificed because I realize other people care about that, so there should be some compromise.

Originally Posted by Elmo

thanks for one of the most useless posts thus far childsanity

Well obviously it was meant to be sarcastic, I was trying to shed some light that this was sounding like a completely bigoted response. And no, Pubbing is NOT necessarily another way of playing the same game because you have gamemodes in pubbing that don't exist in leagues.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by squeek.

So a sniper rifle that shoots a projectile that moves as fast as a rocket would be just as effective as the current sniper rifle?

No, and that's not what I meant. My point was that the Sniper class is not the unkillable, unbeatable, Godlike class that many people make it out to be. It's just like every other class in the game, it's defeatable.... don't sit there and cry about it like a little girl with a skinned knee..... figure it out.