Team Fortress 2

I think he's talking about FF, which is why he posted an FF picture.

Maybe I'm just playing on the wrong servers, but the "teamwork" I've seen on TF2 thus far is everyone tries to kill each other by a command point, then the team with the most players decimates the rest of the other team since help from spawned teammates is 30-45 seconds away. DoD in TF clothing is an accurate description in my experience, also. Then again, Valve has a much, much bigger CS community than any TFC community, so it's natural they're trying to make it appeal to them instead. The fact that TFC got screwed over and had many large exploits and bugs left in is further evidence. So I'm not surprised TF2 is how it is.

The only people that seem to have this snobbish attitude towards TF2 are the ones who are addicted to TF or TFC. It's not TFC and it never will be, so get over it. This is like watching Battlefield players complain about Quake Wars.

[Sabre]

I don't play TFC and i can confirm TF2 is a shit slow, simple console game. Can't wait to get it on PS3 mind, just come to expect a little more from PC multiplayers.

It's not a matter of it not being TFC, I realized that the moment I saw the first screenshots. That doesn't mean that liking TFC means your opinion about TF2 is invalid. TF2 is slow and not fun for me. Why don't you get over the fact that some people don't like it for valid reasons :P

[Private_Joker]

Originally Posted by Curlydave

It's not TFC and it never will be, so get over it.

No, it's not TFC. I don't think any of us want TF2 to be TFC.

What we want is for Fortress in its original form to have the popularity which it deserves. That will never happen, because of Fortess's nature as a third-party mod...but especially because of corporately supported games like CS:S and TF2.

Some argue that Fortress is unpopular because it's an inferior game. I understand that, but I don't accept it.

Can we ALL just agree to disagree about that?

-Joker

Originally Posted by Private_Joker

No, it's not TFC. I don't think any of us want TF2 to be TFC.

What we want is for Fortress in its original form to have the popularity which it deserves. That will never happen, because of Fortess's nature as a third-party mod...but especially because of corporately supported games like CS:S and TF2.

Some argue that Fortress is unpopular because it's an inferior game. I understand that, but I don't accept it.

Can we ALL just agree to disagree about that?

-Joker

TFC is still pretty popular. It doesn't have a massive population like it used to, but the game has been around for 12 years, and it's still popular. Right now there are 514 people playing it, which is more than you can say for most games that old . It's a rock solid game and has stood the test of time perhaps better than any other multiplayer game, but people are eventually going to move on to other things.

[Private_Joker]

Originally Posted by Curlydave

people are eventually going to move on to other things.

This is the attitude towards gaming I have a big problem with; that games can just come and go.
This is why most people in the world have no respect for video gamers!
Because we just waste our time with these games that come and go!
Again, I go back to Hockey: people really respect athletes because they stick with their game; they spend their time training with their team and become skilled in their art.
Why can't Fortress be the same? The difference is, Hockey doesn't need to go though significant updates as technology develops; TF started in 1996, moved up to the GoldSrc engine later (TFC), and now FF has brought it to the Source engine.
But all the time it's stayed the same game. TF2, by changing, is unfortunately perpetuating this popular regard for videogames as mindless timesinks..no, TF2 is not a mindless timesink, but that's how most of the people who play it will use it.

-Joker

[Lyability]

Originally Posted by Private_Joker

This is the attitude towards gaming I have a big problem with; that games can just come and go.
This is why most people in the world have no respect for video gamers!
Because we just waste our time with these games that come and go!
Again, I go back to Hockey: people really respect athletes because they stick with their game; they spend their time training with their team and become skilled in their art.
Why can't Fortress be the same? The difference is, Hockey doesn't need to go though significant updates as technology develops; TF started in 1996, moved up to the GoldSrc engine later (TFC), and now FF has brought it to the Source engine.
But all the time it's stayed the same game. TF2, by changing, is unfortunately perpetuating this popular regard for videogames as mindless timesinks..no, TF2 is not a mindless timesink, but that's how most of the people who play it will use it.

-Joker

Well... yeah! Of course gamers eventually move on. Thank god too because missle command, pong and pac man got boring pretty fast

Its moving on which keep games entertaining! If a developer does their job right, then the process of moving on is delayed. Look at TFC: they did that game right for the most part, and its still being played today! Most of the population has moved on to better things like FF. And for a lot of reasons such as technology advances, better capibilities (physics, graphics..), new engines... That is part of the excitement of gaming, expirencing the "new stuff".

And time sinks? Yeah. Everything is a time sink, from eating pancakes to watching TV. Personally, I prefer to drink beer and play FF to burn time... Given the other choices are do work, or go to the gym: video games it is! Seriously, I love to come home after a hard day at work, open a beer and start playing on line. Its relaxing, and gets the fustrations out, and it takes my mind off of serious matters: its a time sink.

Anyway, now that I have a weekend to actually attempt to play TF2; my god, what a waste of money. Its just... all wrong. I have nothing more to say other than: thank you FF devs for keeping it real for us.

*too lazy to check spelling, I know I can't spell*

[Private_Joker]

Originally Posted by Lyability

Well... yeah! Of course gamers eventually move on. Thank god too because missle command, pong and pac man got boring pretty fast

I'm talking about multiplayer gaming.

Originally Posted by Lyability

If a developer does their job right, then the process of moving on is delayed. Look at TFC: they did that game right for the most part, and its still being played today![

That's not true; the developers of QWTF did their job right (the first time) and people are still playing Fortress...the same game, with different graphics and physics. The generation which conceived Hockey did their job right too, but I don't see many Hockey fans out there expecting it to just be delayed in passing..

Originally Posted by Lyability

Its relaxing, and gets the fustrations out, and it takes my mind off of serious matters: its a time sink.

I didn't say that good games can't be used as a way to relax or play casually, I often do the same thing myself (beer and all!) But my problem is with the attitude that games can only be played casually. TF2 is made for people with that attitude, and because it and games like it (like Halo) are so popular, videogamers unfortunately continue to be regarded as just geeky burnouts.

-Joker

[MERKiN]

Originally Posted by Private_Joker

This is the attitude towards gaming I have a big problem with; that games can just come and go.
This is why most people in the world have no respect for video gamers!
Because we just waste our time with these games that come and go!
Again, I go back to Hockey: people really respect athletes because they stick with their game; they spend their time training with their team and become skilled in their art.
Why can't Fortress be the same?

Thats team work right there. Since you want to use the Hockey analogy I'll try to do the same: Each player has his or her own individual skills, yes working them all together usually gets a win. But what about when its 1on1 time? Are you going to turn teary eyed for your medic when a demoman shoves a piped down your throat? Or are you going to bhop around the demoman blasting him in the face? Yes, TEAM Fortress Classic is about team work, but you need people in the game that have the ability to detach from that and work by themsleves.

After watching TF2 gameplay, and videos on YouTube I'll never play it. I didn't feel this upset when TFC came out (came from QWTF) but I remember not liking it, and then well... I've been playing it from the begining. TF2 is weak, its filled with people whom primarily play CS and WoW. Its basically CS with classes. And you have that medic that turned into a support class, so thats why we now have 6v6. 3D 1 support med 2 offense. Thats... so weak.

I hope they add bhop back in, and add grenades. If not, well you'll see me playing TFC/FF until the last server shuts its doors. Just like I did when WON switched to Steam.

[Dr.Uudge]

Originally Posted by MERKiN

Thats team work right there. Since you want to use the Hockey analogy I'll try to do the same: Each player has his or her own individual skills, yes working them all together usually gets a win. But what about when its 1on1 time? Are you going to turn teary eyed for your medic when a demoman shoves a piped down your throat? Or are you going to bhop around the demoman blasting him in the face? Yes, TEAM Fortress Classic is about team work, but you need people in the game that have the ability to detach from that and work by themsleves.

After watching TF2 gameplay, and videos on YouTube I'll never play it. I didn't feel this upset when TFC came out (came from QWTF) but I remember not liking it, and then well... I've been playing it from the begining. TF2 is weak, its filled with people whom primarily play CS and WoW. Its basically CS with classes. And you have that medic that turned into a support class, so thats why we now have 6v6. 3D 1 support med 2 offense. Thats... so weak.

I hope they add bhop back in, and add grenades. If not, well you'll see me playing TFC/FF until the last server shuts its doors. Just like I did when WON switched to Steam.

This is my sentiments too. Reward teamplay, but don't punish soloers. TF2 on the other hand, seems like they want to punish soloers. And it's frustrating as crap when you see 2 engies babysitting 3 sgs with 3 dispensors behind them as a soldier and have to wait for 4 more teammates, including 2 medics to show up, in order to have a chance at taking the sgs/engs/dispensors sandwiches, only to have 3 of their spies come around and try back stab you when your "uber charge" is over. TF2 is broken.

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by Dr.Uudge

This is my sentiments too. Reward teamplay, but don't punish soloers. TF2 on the other hand, seems like they want to punish soloers. And it's frustrating as crap when you see 2 engies babysitting 3 sgs with 3 dispensors behind them as a soldier and have to wait for 4 more teammates, including 2 medics to show up, in order to have a chance at taking the sgs/engs/dispensors sandwiches, only to have 3 of their spies come around and try back stab you when your "uber charge" is over. TF2 is broken.

Haha damn you really suck or are functionally retarded or both.

A single soldier cannot take out 3sgs+2engineers+3disp by himself? What bullshit TF2 is! A single person should be able to kill 5-6 guys all at the same time if he wants to!

Originally Posted by MERKiN

... TF2 is weak, its filled with people whom primarily play CS and WoW. Its basically CS with classes. And you have that medic that turned into a support class, so thats why we now have 6v6. 3D 1 support med 2 offense. Thats... so weak.

I hope they add bhop back in, and add grenades. If not, well you'll see me playing TFC/FF until the last server shuts its doors. Just like I did when WON switched to Steam.

All I read here is "if never played the game but I will offer my opinion after watching a youtube video of it...". At that point any opinion you have regarding anything is invalidated. And if you seriously think TF2 is anything like CS, other than having two teams and an objective you are just stone dumb. You'd do a lot better to compare it to Day of Defeat than Counter-Strike. But of course you wouldn't know that because you've never played it.

TFC/FF is filled with elitist, whiny bitches and the game mechanics are intentionally slanted against new players. Then people wonder why TFC died while CS exploded, and FF was DOA.

[Private_Joker]

Originally Posted by Dr.Uudge

This is my sentiments too. Reward teamplay, but don't punish soloers.

You're right, that's a good thing about public servers in Fortress; whichever team organizes the most will usually score the best, but the other team can still play their own way.
This means that, in a match between a clusterfuck of pubbers and a team with mostly pubbers but a couple of smart guys to organize them, the team with just the little bit of coordination will come out ahead. The pubbers, though, will still enjoy themselves well enough trying to defend.

-Joker

[Desyphur]

Originally Posted by EngeeMan

Haha damn you really suck or are functionally retarded or both.

A single soldier cannot take out 3sgs+2engineers+3disp by himself? What bullshit TF2 is! A single person should be able to kill 5-6 guys all at the same time if he wants to!



All I read here is "if never played the game but I will offer my opinion after watching a youtube video of it...". At that point any opinion you have regarding anything is invalidated. And if you seriously think TF2 is anything like CS, other than having two teams and an objective you are just stone dumb. You'd do a lot better to compare it to Day of Defeat than Counter-Strike. But of course you wouldn't know that because you've never played it.

TFC/FF is filled with elitist, whiny bitches and the game mechanics are intentionally slanted against new players. Then people wonder why TFC died while CS exploded, and FF was DOA.

I've played the game extensively, and most of the posts here are true.

Also, the part I bolded, that's not 5-6 people...that's 2 engineers. He was a god damn soldier. A solly should be able to take down 2 engineers.

While I'm at it, I'll talk about that last last paragraph. Elitist, whiny bitches? Have you been to the Steam forums? I've never seen such elitists. Excuse me a minute, I'll go get a post or two.

Originally Posted by Xythil

Listen closely.
The scout is a fast, twitch fest character with low hit points.

Here is how you can overcome this amazing OVerpoWEERD class!

1) Learn to play on a sensitivity over 5
2) Learn how to lead your targets
3) Learn how to retreat to narrow passageways when a scout is coming for you.
4) Learn how to play as a team
5) Learn how to aim at your newfound sensitivity higher then 5.

If all else fails, go play Halo 3 where enemies move as Molasses speeds giving you plenty of time to aim your shots as they snail themselves across your screen!.

The scout is an offensive class. He is a force in 1v1 combat. He cannot however assault a base as sentry guns destroy him and his guns are relatively ineffective against SGs.

The scout is NOT however a token flag runner , and some free kills. They are an offensive class with firepower to bring down even soldiers! Guess what! They are one of the counter to soldiers! Soldiers have few shots and slow moving projectiles. The scout is MEANT to be able to put up a fight by avoiding his rockets and owning him in the face. However, a soldier with some FPS skills (and a sensitivity above 5) can lead the scout, and destroy him in a rocket or 2.

Now that we are done here, move on to todays news. Its Pyros that are OVERPOWEERD now. Your whining is needed over in that camp. Scouts are yesterdays news.

Tell me that's not elitist.

And insults in every paragraph? Nice job. Go home. No one likes you.

[Dr.Uudge]

Originally Posted by EngeeMan

Haha damn you really suck or are functionally retarded or both.

Apparently you have not played the soldier much in TF. Any group of sgs cluttered together is an easy target for one well placed nailgun and a few rockets. Clever engies place their sgs sparsely so that 1 well placed mirv or nailgren cannot take all of them out.

I thought you were more mature. Guess not. From now on, your opinion is worth zero value. Way to rep your TF2 community.

[Desyphur]

Dr. Uudge, you remain awesome

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by Dr.Uudge

Apparently you have not played the soldier much in TF. Any group of sgs cluttered together is an easy target for one well placed nailgun and a few rockets. Clever engies place their sgs sparsely so that 1 well placed mirv or nailgren cannot take all of them out.

I thought you were more mature. Guess not. From now on, your opinion is worth zero value. Way to rep your TF2 community.

Yeah, shame that that is a different game from TF2 so surprisingly enough, different tactics apply. I know it is shocking and all, but different games play differently from each other. TF2 sgs take longer to get up to lvl 3 than TFC ones do, and can be initially be building while you are mobile. This makes the dynamic of investment of time into SG building different as well.

But no, the game should play EXACTLY the same as all the ones that came before it. The entire dynamic of the game changes with the removal of grenades towards more aim-intensive. The addition of a spawn timer AND the removal of grenades creates an evironment that is generally unfriendly to just running into a cluster of enemies on kamikaze runs, especially on defense. But no, Scout should still just jump jump jump into the respawn room every 15 seconds because that's the way it always has been. You give it the ability to actually kill someone and that's not the way it is "supposed" to be.

Your entire argument and outlook is based on presuppositions on previous games and not the merit and dynamics of the game itself.

Take the same situation and use a demoman. Strafe in and out avoiding SG fire, launch just about 4-5 stickies around the cluster then det them. Wow, you win! Incredible. You got backstabbed or Pyro'd while doing it? Wow you aren't able to attack and destroy several entrenched enemies all by your lonesome? Welcome to Team Fortress 2. Maybe you should try DM.

[Direhit]

Originally Posted by Dr.Uudge

I thought you were more mature. Guess not. From now on, your opinion is worth zero value. Way to rep your TF2 community.

I don't know why, but I genuinely laughed at that...

[Desyphur]

Originally Posted by EngeeMan

Yeah, shame that that is a different game from TF2 so surprisingly enough, different tactics apply. I know it is shocking and all, but different games play differently from each other. TF2 sgs take longer to get up to lvl 3 than TFC ones do, and can be initially be building while you are mobile. This makes the dynamic of investment of time into SG building different as well.

But no, the game should play EXACTLY the same as all the ones that came before it. The entire dynamic of the game changes with the removal of grenades towards more aim-intensive. The addition of a spawn timer AND the removal of grenades creates an evironment that is generally unfriendly to just running into a cluster of enemies on kamikaze runs, especially on defense. But no, Scout should still just jump jump jump into the respawn room every 15 seconds because that's the way it always has been. You give it the ability to actually kill someone and that's not the way it is "supposed" to be.

Your entire argument and outlook is based on presuppositions on previous games and not the merit and dynamics of the game itself.

Take the same situation and use a demoman. Strafe in and out avoiding SG fire, launch just about 4-5 stickies around the cluster then det them. Wow, you win! Incredible. You got backstabbed or Pyro'd while doing it? Wow you aren't able to attack and destroy several entrenched enemies all by your lonesome? Welcome to Team Fortress 2. Maybe you should try DM.

Ok, wait. So what your saying, is if we play the game, we're going to LOSE. Right?

Because even teams of players go up against sentries and DIE. Your argument is invalid. A rocket SHOULD deal a bit more damge to a sentry. I mean seriously. 3-4 rockets should take one out, and the engy should be taking alot of damage from the rockets too. Not just magically surviving because he's standing next to his dispenser. The dispenser heals too fast, and the rockets don't deal enough damage.

Team Fortress Two needs class limits also, any server without them, and you have 5 engies with sentries and no way to take them down. [sarcasm]That's fun[/sarcasm]

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by Desyphur

Ok, wait. So what your saying, is if we play the game, we're going to LOSE. Right?

Because even teams of players go up against sentries and DIE. Your argument is invalid. A rocket SHOULD deal a bit more damge to a sentry. I mean seriously. 3-4 rockets should take one out, and the engy should be taking alot of damage from the rockets too. Not just magically surviving because he's standing next to his dispenser. The dispenser heals too fast, and the rockets don't deal enough damage.

Team Fortress Two needs class limits also, any server without them, and you have 5 engies with sentries and no way to take them down. [sarcasm]That's fun[/sarcasm]

You have 4 guys and I have 4 guys and 4 sgs and we are in a defensive position. If the 4 attacking guys are a medic, 2 demomen and a spy then you are in a great attacking position if the players are skilled. The demomen can sticky two distinct areas, or just toss a few pipebombs in to get the engineers behind their guns. At that point the spy runs in and saps everything in sight, forcing the engineers to their guns. Simultaneously the medic ubers a demoman who lays as many stickies as he can around everything and dets them before uber is up. All the while the spy continues to sap. The guns are destoryed and the other demoman can assist in clearing out whatever engineers are left.

Wow, coordination. Pretty insane, I know.

----

A HWG close enough and a Pyro being healed can both take down a SG with an engee healing it. Have a spy sap the thing 1-2 times in addition to the rockets and it is dead. Attack an unmanned turret with 3-4 rockets and it dies. Attack a SG farm with 4-5 sticky bombs as a Demolitions Man and engee or not, they are dead and destroyed.

You're making the case that no matter what a soldier should be absolutely better than an engineer. If an engineer and soldier come across each other in the wild yes. Definitely. The engineer doesn't have much of a chance at all and will likely be killed before they can get two shots off. The soldier has an advantage in firepower and defense. The soldier is much slower, but the engineer isn't exactly speedy gonzales himself.

But if an engineer is sitting behind a fully upgraded turret with a dispenser behind him, his strongest position he could possibly be in in the game, the soldier should still beat him every time? In fact, even if there were 3 sgs and 2 engineers and 3 dispensers the soldier should still come out on top? So a soldier should be absolutely better than multiple engineers, in fact. I don't know, I just get the feeling you play soldier often. If you absolutely want to always dominate engineers, play Demolitions man. The stickies shoot very far when fully charged and he is deadly in 1v1 as well.