2.42 First Impressions

[eomoyaff]

As stated above, the offense was nerfed and does seem fustrating to play offense on most CTF maps.. This patch made the game completely inbalanced.... For instance, in destroy, if I go button, I usually have to kill a solly just to get to the SG in the flag room. By that time I usually don't have grenades. Then having to reload my nail gun while firing at it is just tedious.. And going ramp and getting hit with that same pressure hit every 8 seconds makes it nearly impossible to get by the hw, if not slows me down and gets me killed everytime before I even get near the flag. If you infect the fatty (somehow, assuming you make it by his pressured attack) you then have to make sure that someone is there to clean up the kill or else his hp will just start to come back again... .. and when you add that with slow fields it's just plain fustrating. You can also use monkey as an example. Anything that goes lower gets fucked by the same shit. I mean the HW could literally just drop down by the medic and pressure his aim off the sg, and because he missed due to that, he has to reload and thus dies in the process.. Plus you can just slow field at the bottom of the pit and anything that concs gets slowed instantly, and the hw can just go back to the lower spawn to get more every time. Annoying... Openfire, the same thing. Drop his shit in a chokepoint, easy kill, prevents sg kills. Stops ramp concing scouts in their tracks everytime... 8 seconds is fucking rediculous. should be more like 30. I'm obviously more proned to play offense, and I'd like a little help in that department ffs.

[Trailer]

Ya I gotta agree with moya, and I am pretty much balanced on O and D, I like them both equally.

The fact that someone who has spent years mastering the art of concing can time the most perfect conc, and have it completely raped by a hw who simply right clicks when you get close is INFURIATING.

It's one thing to have a demo match the timing of a scout landing on the flag mid conc, I can deal with that because it takes a lot of practice to get used to how fast and "jerky" the scouts move. But any noob can stand on the flag and right click when you get close, the absolute most skill less tactic in this game imo. HW is about the equivalent of a D pyro now, nothing but a complete frustration, and very little skill required.

Also, 1 other rant. 3 slow fields is too many. I was playing on drop down and the flag was in the yard, I would go out where the flag is, throw my 3 slow fields in succession so that the next one started when the previous one ended, kill my self with a grenade and by the time I was back, my slowfield had just ended. So this means that it's possible to have a slow field on the flag at ALL times on a lot of maps.

*These views and expressions are strictly opinions*

[squeek.]

Starting and max slowfields are going to be decreased in 2.43 (to 1 and 2 respectively), and they are going to be toned down in other respects as well.

I don't see the distinction you're trying to make between the overpressure and a pipe trap. How are they different? The most perfect conc, just like when dealing with a pipe trap, is either so fast they don't have time to react or is planned so that you make them waste the det/overpressure and you escape afterwards. Except, with the overpressure, if you juke it, you know for certain he can't use it again until the cooldown is up (with pipes, he could get another pipe on the flag before you get to picking it up). But, overpressure cooldown is being increased in 2.43 as well.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

I already said I'd fix the map ending early(which is related to the two minute timer). Messing with the time limit is really annoying to do and can be unpredictable. If the map timer runs down the map will end, whether you're in the middle of a round or not. So it takes some surprisingly complex logic to determine what round should be the last one and when to add time to mp_timelimit.

If messing with the timer is unpredictable (I know zombie panic source has good success with this, but they use the Ep 2 engine as well), then I think the other solution I mentioned in the last post would be preferable. It would still run down to the exact same time, it would just tally scores differently depending on what was going on.

Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

Or maybe you just need some more time to get used to it.

Some changes are like that, the changes to the engineer's raygun is a pretty good example of that for me. Those feel different, not bad or worse. Seeing multiple I/D games end much faster than normal did not feel fun at all and I think is clearly worse from the perspective of fun playing.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

I'm obviously more proned to play offense, and I'd like a little help in that department ffs.

You know I have to say this feels like a total reversal to what I've been seeing the past couple years, so I'll throw back something I was told all the time with me: What is your TEAM doing to help you? Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying, but it sounds like you're complaining that offense is no longer a one-man operation. Is anyone on the team using non-light classes to break more things up? Soldiers, pyros, and demomen can create a lot of chaos to break D. My team had no problem capping on O when I was using heavier classes to focus on D, it's just not as fast as 2.4 levels.

On the flipside, I think you're right in that NERFS to O seem mostly unnecessary. The buffs D got helped level the playing field, but what was nerfed on O I don't think was ever a big problem in the first place.

Originally Posted by Trailer

The fact that someone who has spent years mastering the art of concing can time the most perfect conc, and have it completely raped by a hw who simply right clicks when you get close is INFURIATING.

Well that's understandable, though what's been your attitude in the past about how one O player can lay down a jump pad to ferry every member of his team to the cap point much faster? That can make D's job hell and it doesn't exactly take skill to lay those down either. I feel like if you take away overpressure, you should take away jump pads as well.

Also I will say just having the heavy stand at the cap point on some maps really makes him a target as well. For heavier classes attacking, the hwguy seems to be the #1 target now with lots of incoming rockets and grenades. So even though he can shove you back, he's more likely to die next to the flag too. As for the slowing fields, I haven't found them to be a badly needed feature compared to overpressure, I haven't seen anyone so far who would have a problem with that.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Raynian

Could someone upload the female announcer sounds? I had it set to them before, but updating overwrote that and I forgot to make a backup of it.

They're already in there, you need to go to Fortress Forever\Scripts and delete/rename the sentences.txt then rename the sentences_female.txt to sentences.txt

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by Trailer

The fact that someone who has spent years mastering the art of concing can time the most perfect conc, and have it completely raped by a hw who simply right clicks when you get close is INFURIATING.

That's exactly what a Demoman does though with yellow pipes, but a demo hides in a corner usually, they use right click defense which is much more powerful than the Heavy.

Something similar could be said for a Soldier, the kind who stand on the flag, see you conc towards them, then start shooting the floor as you get near to try and splash damage you.

Even an Engineer who puts his Dispenser on the flag and binds it to a key, can ruin a perfect conc just by hitting a single key.

There's a few classes that can be picked up by a novice and be used to a reasonable level.

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by FreaK367

That's exactly what a Demoman does though with yellow pipes, but a demo hides in a corner usually, they use right click defense which is much more powerful than the Heavy.

Something similar could be said for a Soldier, the kind who stand on the flag, see you conc towards them, then start shooting the floor as you get near to try and splash damage you.

Even an Engineer who puts his Dispenser on the flag and binds it to a key, can ruin a perfect conc just by hitting a single key.

There's a few classes that can be picked up by a novice and be used to a reasonable level.

Just because some classes can stop concs, why should more of them be able to? Did concs really need another counter?

[oaties]

Originally Posted by Jay Mofo Mills

My first impression is that the defense got SIGNIFICANT buffs and scout/medic main offense classes got significantly nerfed.

Medic: Infection no longer kills. Thank god the medpack does more damage. Reload on the nailgun pfft.... Don't try to dm a Heavy. Don't try to take out a sentry gun. You'll just hit a slow nade and be too busy fucking reloading that 2 grenades and your 1-1/2 clips of a nailgun can't get past the engy constantly whacking his gun and the 3 other defenders raping you. The medic got completely neutered and I'm ashamed to play him now. Its sad.

Scout: Team jumppads - well it is what it is. Moot point for me, though the slow nade causes major problems. Good for a noob HW who holds down m1 and can't aim well. Bad in the hands of someone who can already play HW well.

I like the soldiers laser nade. Need to playtest more but game keeps crashing even after hotfix.

I'll play a little more to get a better feel but this is my first impressions.

I think I might jump on the bandwagon of the majority of people who just play defense. Especially since it just got easier and Offense just got a lot harder.

I don't mean to gripe.

To be fair, I think some of the concepts are neat. They could be useful, the current implementation does not feel anywhere near balanced to me. Good work on getting it out there. You dev's kick ass for keeping this game moving.

Love FF.

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by episkopos

Just because some classes can stop concs, why should more of them be able to? Did concs really need another counter?

Talking from the scout within me, no. Because I rage whenever I get past loads of defense then get killed by a damn Demoman hiding in a corner with pipes on the flag.

But the Heavy has one chance to stop you, if he mistimes his overpressure he needs to wait 8 seconds, and longer in 2.43 to use it again, so multiple attackers will run rings around the Heavy.

The main problem is not the overpressure but rather the slow grenade. I think all of the Heavy upgrades in 2.42 will be slightly nerfed for 2.43 though, so it should be less effective then.

[Trailer]

The difference of a demoman, is he isn't standing on the flag, you can conc past the pipes and grab the flag in mid air. HW completely blocks incoming concs with his fat ass, AND pushes you away when you get close.

[Hammock]

Got to play a bit on the weekend. I played 1 pickup game (and watched a few others) and played a few pubs. Boy defense sure got a boost, high capping maps in pickups were extremely low capping. It's completely changed the mentality of what would be a winning number of caps for some maps.

High capping maps are very low capping now, I'm afraid to even think what an already low capping map would be like. I could see pickups now that end at 0-0 pretty easily.

The number of nails the medic has seems a bit low. I can understand this change if defense already didn't get a boost with other changes. But now it seems unbalanced in D's favor with all the changes combined.

Maybe instead of giving more nails back, just increase the dmg of the nails. That way they can still be just as effective, only one would have to be more accurate to obtain that effectiveness (no blanket shooting a target area until what you're aiming at finally goes down).

I haven't really experienced an issue with the sg push. It doesn't seem to lock on any faster or anything, so a good conc is still going to avoid it. In general it should help out OvD maps though.

The HW buffs are amazing and completely change the dynamics of the game. It's nice that the HW is viable in soo many more areas now because it has area denial like the other main D classes. He especially is far more usefull on OvD maps. Like preventing instant caps out of the gates from a jumper. And I did get the opportunity last night on ksour_classic to prevent a demo from capping the last cap point from a jump. My whole team went nuts with "owned" comments, and it was pretty epic (first time for us). Flag was dropped on the ground, and standing there I was able to prevent a lot of stuff, cause everytime someone came to jump in (even though the flag was on the ground) they still had to come close to me, so I kept blasting them back. Then when they finally got the flag and ran up the steps, I knocked them off the steps.

So ya, HW far more usefull.

The jump pads seem a bit too easily destroyable, but work fine in OvD CTF style maps where enemies aren't running to your front door to destroy it. I'm fine with not being able to build one in the enemy base and stuff, but in a full pub in most maps one will never stay up.

Perhaps a timer on it before it's allowed to be destroyed, so it will last the same length of time one usually did before it timed out, so it still feels like it can be worth it to build one. Otherwise you can get these dicks who just camp outside your base (which they normally do) and destroy jp's over and over (something they couldn't do until now).

[KubeDawg]

Hammock, I like your medic idea to increase the damage the SNG nails do while keeping a smaller clip. I think that'd be better than increasing the clip size.

I've have a few chances to play with the new updates and first off, I am impressed with the ideas that the devs were able to turn into actual weapons and grenades.

Short of the issues and bugs, this patch really feels like the best one since the beginning of FF's release.

I like the laser grenade, but I feel it's a bit too weak of a grenade. I think if the lasers spun a bit faster and did a small amount more damage, it'd be a better grenade.

I also like the training map, but should be improved upon for future FF updates to include class-specific techniques for all classes. Example, showing someone how to quickly build a level 3 SG.

Soft clipping is my favorite part of the update, hands down and that's simply because I've been waiting for it for a loooong time heh.

I don't think I have an issue with any visual parts of FF that were updated. I love the stars and Zzzs above conced/tranqed people's heads and the new HUD features are great!

Concaim makes FF feel more like TFC when concing. The dizziness effect is perfect.

I think to make the SG still a beast without completely nerfing it, the SG push should be decreased by 1 or 2. I'm not sure what the ground push multipler does, but something should be done to decrease the overall push, but not back down to 2.41 values.

I haven't had the chance to test out the reworked Medkit yet, but hopefully it'll be easier to infect players since the melee hit detection has been improved.

I like both additions to the HW guy, but I think the slowfield is OP. I've already seen that devs are addressing this issue, so I won't go into it. The overpressure special ability is a GREAT thing for the HW, actually making him a contender as defense instead of just mirvin' it up. What a great way to counteract the chaotic speed of FF.

The new Warpath is stunning. I just wish the community were bigger because I can imagine having a BLAST on that map with a full server.

All in all, good update. Way to go guys!

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by Hammock

They're already in there, you need to go to Fortress Forever\Scripts and delete/rename the sentences.txt then rename the sentences_female.txt to sentences.txt

I renamed sentences_female to sentences in 2.3, but with 2.42, it overwrote that file - and it didn't give me another sentences_female. Hence why I need another person to upload it for me. :x

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Raynian

I renamed sentences_female to sentences in 2.3, but with 2.42, it overwrote that file - and it didn't give me another sentences_female. Hence why I need another person to upload it for me.

Ahh, I see. I never straight renamed any of the files, I just copied and renamed the copy, so I didn't get that problem

[angrypyro]

Originally Posted by Hammock

The jump pads seem a bit too easily destroyable, but work fine in OvD CTF style maps where enemies aren't running to your front door to destroy it. I'm fine with not being able to build one in the enemy base and stuff, but in a full pub in most maps one will never stay up.

How about allowing the Engie to upgrade jumppads to level 2 and 3 increasing its armor? Sine the Engie is a defense class, it allows the jump pad to have more health while still not being able to be build inside the enemy base without it being taken out quickly.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by angrypyro

How about allowing the Engie to upgrade jumppads to level 2 and 3 increasing its armor? Sine the Engie is a defense class, it allows the jump pad to have more health while still not being able to be build inside the enemy base without it being taken out quickly.

You can barely get a medic/engy to heal/wrench you when you're standing right next to them. With a jump pad sitting in the front of your base the complete opposite direction a typical engy runs (as they run around inside your base), I sorta doubt an engineer is going to take the time to upgrade a jump pad that would still be destroyable.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by angrypyro

How about allowing the Engie to upgrade jumppads to level 2 and 3 increasing its armor? Sine the Engie is a defense class, it allows the jump pad to have more health while still not being able to be build inside the enemy base without it being taken out quickly.

Increase armor or increase jump speed? I think it's a nifty concept either way, allowing the engi to upgrade another class' buildable. Don't think it would need to have 3 levels though.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Hammock

You can barely get a medic/engy to heal/wrench you when you're standing right next to them. With a jump pad sitting in the front of your base the complete opposite direction a typical engy runs (as they run around inside your base), I sorta doubt an engineer is going to take the time to upgrade a jump pad that would still be destroyable.

There actually are some team players out there, ya know.

[Hammock]

But it doesn't address the issue that i'm talking about.

I'll use ff_destroy as an example. You build a jump on your batts in an OvD game that jump pad will stay up all game nobody is there to destroy it.

But if you build a jump pad on your batts in a pub that's a full game (ie: both sides have offense) that jump pad is sitting outside your base undefended with enemy offense running right by it. There isn't anywhere in the front of your base you can build it where an enemy O won't see it and destroy it.

Hell even I would stop and take it down just to hurt the enemy O. In pubs they don't usually care soo much about capping the flag instantly, so it's not like it's a scout spending a good few seconds shooting the thing to take it out, it'd be some heavier class that will be completely satisfied that he accomplished at least 1 thing that run by taking down the front door jp.

Hell even right now we have spy players who camp outside the batts, just waiting for a scout to start building a jp just to back stab him. That's how patient some of these pubbers can be.

So instead of building a jp once a minute like before, in theory a scout could be building one every run in a pub. So what would be the point?

So my suggestion was to just make the jump pad indestructable for the given amount of time a jump pad was already lasting (60-90 secs?). That way a scout wouldn't consider it a waste of time to just build one, and after the 60-90 second mark it becomes destroyable, if it's not destroyed then that's gravy. If it is, then it's nothing different than how we're playing now.

Having an engy upgrade it would not negate the fact that it's going to remain undefended and just be destroyed at the earliest convienence of the enemy O.

[Ventry(Leo Wainker)]

wow.
Just about unplayable.
Hope new update fixes crashing.
8 times in 2 hours.
same crash. "R6025: pure virtual function call"
Last time couldn't re-connect crash over and over and over.