Improving CTF gameplay

[xks]

Originally Posted by Credge

Yes, it works just like somebodies heart can work when they are legally brain dead. It doesn't mean much.

CTF is a broken game type. It's broken because it's not fun. It's not fun because it requires coordination that public players just do not have. Squeek layed it out plainly.

There is very little room for improvement for CTF. Everything suggested in this thread won't make people work together, or understand what they should do at any given time, or do anything different than they should. There is no way to implement 'recommended' things to do based on your class as they are all map dependent. A soldier on a ramp in SD2 is very good. A soldier on a ramp in 2fort is not.

Making people more aware of objectives does not work either. Look at TF2. The objectives are literally shoved in your face 90% of the time and CTF is just a big a joke in TF2 as it is in FF and TFC. You've got about 4-6 people actually doing the objectives and then you've got everyone else doing anything but play CTF.

With AVD, the action moves with the game. There is one focal point of action in AVD. In CTF you've got multiple tiny skirmishes. Even further, properly playing CTF is boring as all shit. You've got people standing around protecting vital points that are easy to defend but crucial for stability and they see just about 0 action the entire game. That's just not fun. Not at all.

With more people, like public server numbers, you'll have tons of people standing around not doing anything because they'd be playing CTF properly. Just not fun.

Nobody that plays public CTF wants to stand around doing little for an entire game. If they did, they'd play competitively and ask to guard the plank on SD2 every game.

It's not a desirable pub game. The reason is simple.



And that is the reason. CTF is fine as is. It's primarily for competitive players, just like it was in TFC, and it's not a desirable game type for public play. FPS players now just want to hop in to a game and kill people. They don't want to learn why an SG in this position works while an SG in a different one doesn't, or why an offensive HW is a poor choice. They just want to go in and shoot stuff. That's it.

If FPS gamers are as simple as you say then why bother with any gametype other than DM in an empty sandbox with the same weapons and low health?

If I want to jump on a server and relentlessly destroy people I will play a DM game. The key thing is I don't always want to do that, I want to play CTF in a team against another team.

Players who want to hop into a game and kill people need to start playing another game as clearly a team based game requiring strategy and skill is not for them eh?

Your reasoning is difficult to agree with.

In an average game of CTF on pretty much any given map you will have action wherever you are, whether you are a defender or an attacker. The amount of action you get will vary but ultimately you will perform a role for your team and hopefully help them win.

If the enemy give up attacking altogether you can always move away from your defensive position and hunt down some action, although I don't particularly enjoy camping the respawn of the opposing team.

It's a perfectly desirable gametype. Other team based games suffer from the same problems and get along ok. You will always play alongside people with less skill and probably people with more skill too. That's just the nature of gaming and sport, it's part of the appeal really.

As for being bored defending certain parts of maps, some might get bored yes, but just as many will enjoy killing the enemies trying to get past them. That's why some people enjoy defending and some enjoy attacking, different things appeal to them. Plenty of people sit and wait in DoD/CS and other CTF games, why is it any worse in FF?

It's no good playing a game centered around CTF and teamplay then stating that it only works on public servers in a more DM oriented scenario. The game is what players make it and if the players keep DMing and being spammy gits then they are going to create a different atmosphere to those who are going to play properly.

I had two very differing public games today.

On the SNT servers I played with a bunch of mostly European players. We had pretty decent games, including one of the best Aardvark defences I've had the pleasure to be part of on a pub server so far. Both teams had an offence that matched the opponents defence quite well and the scores were often evenly matched. It was certainly enjoyable until quite a few people left and the whole thing kind of died down.

Later on the Old Timers server, once I finally got past the stupid reserved slot nonsense I had a very different experience. Probably slightly less experienced players, although still most of the server were guys I'd seen play decently before and most knew how to play the game properly. Despite this four members of our opposition (who clearly knew better) spent the large majority of well spamming/camping spawns rather than attempting any caps. After that monkey got voted on and the map started pretty well, enemy attacking, good defence stopping them and decent offence capping for our team. Five minutes later the enemy pretty much give up offence and half their team goes sniper with the rest being HWGuy/Pyro's. Around the same time five of the eight members of my team go sniper and the whole thing descends into a farce. Why people want to play sniper on monkey I don't know, it's a terrible sniping map and I think it's the only map I could almost justify removing snipers altogether or at least limiting them to one as on aardvark.

I have a lot more fun on the European servers generally because the skill level is slightly higher. However, the NA servers aren't exactly full of morons, there are plenty of people who know how to play on them, it's just for some reason they all play strange classes or avoid playing properly, instead preferring to mess around doing stupid things. That's probably the main reason I have more fun on the European servers, there is a lot less messing around and a lot more attempting to cap/defend and 'win'.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by xks

On the SNT servers I played with a bunch of mostly European players. We had pretty decent games, including one of the best Aardvark defences I've had the pleasure to be part of on a pub server so far. Both teams had an offence that matched the opponents defence quite well and the scores were often evenly matched. It was certainly enjoyable until quite a few people left and the whole thing kind of died down.

Later on the Old Timers server, once I finally got past the stupid reserved slot nonsense I had a very different experience. Probably slightly less experienced players, although still most of the server were guys I'd seen play decently before and most knew how to play the game properly. Despite this four members of our opposition (who clearly knew better) spent the large majority of well spamming/camping spawns rather than attempting any caps. After that monkey got voted on and the map started pretty well, enemy attacking, good defence stopping them and decent offence capping for our team. Five minutes later the enemy pretty much give up offence and half their team goes sniper with the rest being HWGuy/Pyro's. Around the same time five of the eight members of my team go sniper and the whole thing descends into a farce. Why people want to play sniper on monkey I don't know, it's a terrible sniping map and I think it's the only map I could almost justify removing snipers altogether or at least limiting them to one as on aardvark.

I have a lot more fun on the European servers generally because the skill level is slightly higher. However, the NA servers aren't exactly full of morons, there are plenty of people who know how to play on them, it's just for some reason they all play strange classes or avoid playing properly, instead preferring to mess around doing stupid things. That's probably the main reason I have more fun on the European servers, there is a lot less messing around and a lot more attempting to cap/defend and 'win'.

That's a pretty good indictment of CTF itself right there. All you need is a few people not playing "properly" to ruin the game for everyone. In an AvD game you can make poor choices, but it just causes you to be ineffective. It doesn't force the other team to give up or switch tactics, as in your monkey example.

[MightyLotu]

i agree with xks, but lets just see how things are right now

i rarely ever see people play the AVD/ID/ADZ maps in FF, mostly just CTF maps.. i guess that must say something about those other gametypes too then (well, maybe it just says something about FF)

CTF has always been the most popular gamemode of all fortress games and it will stay that way in FF unless you restrict mappers from making CTF maps and don't let server owners run them

so we're not going to do anything to atempt improving it, because it's broken?

new players usually get their first impression of FF by playing CTF maps

you could at least make it more fun to play in FF for pubbers because what's basically being said is that FF CTF is only good for clanplay

[Bridget]

CTF =

• Cliche
• Generic
• Overrated
• Overplayed
• Boring

[illogicality-]

Originally Posted by Bridget

CTF =

• Cliche
• Generic
• Overrated
• Overplayed
• Boring

Bridget = the exact player we've been speaking about.

It's only boring because you don't know how to EFFECTIVELY play ctf and/or you lack skill to compete/have fun with the more skilled players to actually fit in a ctf game. Your post is utterly useless.

I've been playing CTF since 1999 and, aside from having the greatest group of guys around me in [ gr. ], CTF is the reason I play this game still. You constantly learn new things, you constantly gain skill... and if you think you've mastered a class, there are 8 more to go grasp (well.. 6.. I don't count pyro or sniper) not to mention both offense and defense. There are so many aspects to CTF which make it one of the most fun gameplay styles out there.

[xks]

Originally Posted by illogicality-

Bridget = the exact player we've been speaking about.

It's only boring because you don't know how to EFFECTIVELY play ctf and/or you lack skill to compete/have fun with the more skilled players to actually fit in a ctf game. Your post is utterly useless.

I've been playing CTF since 1999 and, aside from having the greatest group of guys around me in [ gr. ], CTF is the reason I play this game still. You constantly learn new things, you constantly gain skill... and if you think you've mastered a class, there are 8 more to go grasp (well.. 6.. I don't count pyro or sniper) not to mention both offense and defense. There are so many aspects to CTF which make it one of the most fun gameplay styles out there.

Well said.

The diversity and constantly varying gameplay is what makes CTF one of the best FPS gametypes ever conceived. Since it's all about tactical balance and skill there is no end to the enjoyment available.

Years ago I played CS and TFC at the same time, I was in the best UK CS clan at the time and a very good TFC clan. I acheived far more in CS and ended up leaving TFC to pursue CS further. However, whilst playing both of them at a high level each week I was happy to state that TFC was a far more skillful game than CS. The quality of the offy I had to try and stop in TFC was nothing short of sublime, perfect coordination from two or three people that left me almost out of breath with sheer effort and concentration trying to stop their relentless assault. CS just didn't have that same relentless rush, at times it was impossibly amazing but at the end of the day there was quite a bit of luck involved with regard to bullet registration and who dies first/how much damage you take.

I got FF with the hope of rekindling those amazing CTF moments and having an overall more casual experience on public servers (compared to CS publics which involve far more effort to have fun).

[[AE] 82694]

Fuck me it took me an hour to read all your guys long winded posts. But I must say well done at being civil and on topic.

[EquilibriuM]

Well said Illo well said. I agree with you 100% Good day Sir's

[MightyLotu]

yes, having played TFC from the time it came out CTF has always been my favorite gamemode for the points xks and illogicality listed and it still is for many people
and that is why CTF deserves the attention it needs in FF to give it a fresh feel
some of the points i made might seem purely aesthetic but they all add up to the goal of improving the gameplay in the end because people get the feel that everything is worked out well, it will encourage them to actually try to play the gamemode as it's meant to be played.. if you know what i mean.. it's like how small details make a great game, a game that people like playing

anyway feel free to come up with any new ideas people, even the smallest things are important

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by illogicality-

CTF is the reason I play this game still.

Wait a second. You play this game?

And, no one is saying that CTF itself is broken/unfun. CTF in public servers is.

[xks]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Wait a second. You play this game?

And, no one is saying that CTF itself is broken/unfun. CTF in public servers is.

But it isn't!

It's no more broken than the other gameplay modes in FF, or other team based games.

A big problem for me is what seems to be a great deal of focus on creating new gameplay types. I don't really know why so much effort goes into trying to reinvent the wheel (so to speak) since the majority of any new gameplay type is not going to be played very often and only makes a newcomers job of learning the game harder.

FF right now has:

CTF, AvD. ID, ADZ, TC, Push and Assassination. The last dev blog post by Ihmhi outlined three additional gameplay types that the dev team were working on. That puts us at a whopping ten different gameplay types.

Each one of these has different rules, different restrictions and require different skills. How can you possibly expect a new player to grasp all of these things without getting confused and therefore frustrated. New players might not play CTF in the ideal way, but then they don't play any of these gameplay types in the ideal way.

I mentioned in another thread that FF should have three main gameplay types that are focused on at most. The others shouldn't necessarily be scrapped altogether but put on the backburner.

CS started out with one single gameplay type, hostage rescue. It took several full releases before they came up with the idea of the de_ maps. They came up with some more new ideas with varying success but they all ended up being dropped due to being less popular, more complicated and the fact that they had far less maps. The mod became a phenomenal success through being easy to learn and difficult to master, through having simple gameplay that was easy to grasp and a wide range of high quality maps.

Even if all of the new gameplay types you have created for FF are big hits, you still have very few maps for each type and it's not just a matter of time to create more maps because they have to be high quality too.

Personally I don't know what was wrong with the gameplay of TC, surely that fits your requirements of being 'DM friendly'. Plus the way you revamped it for FF has improved it dramatically. Yet the only maps we really have for TC are CZ2 (classic and well made update) and Tiger (not so good).

This thread might be about CTF, but discussing the other gameplay types seems relevant to me since they are affecting the quality of CTF gameplay in FF as much as anything else.

[Edit: I believe I mentioned one gameplay type too many since the 'reverse flagrun-ish' type mentioned ont he dev blog I referred to clearly seems to be Impact. I left the post as it was and added this note instead]

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by xks

FF right now has:

CTF, AvD. ID, ADZ, TC, Push and Assassination. The last dev blog post by Ihmhi outlined three additional gameplay types that the dev team were working on. That puts us at a whopping ten different gameplay types.

Ihmhi's dev journal was misleading. Two of the "new gametypes" in that journal are both ADZ (impact-style, and a version without flags that will be coming soon). The two-team hunted is miles and miles and miles away (if it ever happens).

We are focusing primarily on ADZ (and AvD/ID a bit) at the moment. It is as simple as a gametype can get (offense go here, defense stop offense from going here), and yet provides something for both new and skilled players. It also is a nice middle-ground for CTF because it is best defended using CTF-esque strategies (layered defense, SGs towards the back); plus, the offense gets secondary grenades. We may not have perfected the gametype in 1 map, though, and we will hopefully remedy that situation soon.

TC doesn't work all that well in public servers because of the same reason that CTF doesn't work (5 [or 6*] offensive objectives and 5 [or 6*] defensive objectives for each player on each team at all times). It can be fun if both teams are going for the objectives, which I've seen in public servers and enjoyed it; but it can just as easily be unfocused and heavily slanted towards the team that may be trying harder (rounds can end incredibly quickly if only 1 team is trying).

* counting the Control Center det

[xks]

I preferred ADZ to AvD but it's still inferior to ID. I'm not really a fan of either of them but I've played them all a lot on publics and the best games were clearly on ID maps such as Palermo. ADZ and AvD end up being major spamfests far more so than ID which often ends up being more of a progressive war.

The updated TC on FF is far and away superior to the old TFC version. It's a shame no one has produced a high quality map for this gametype since it can be very dynamic and interesting to play. The way the HUD is set up makes it pretty obvious where your problems are on the map and what your next objective is, there are also several ways to win and the contest moves in a real time way rather than a "your turn to attack", "now your turn to attack" way.

Which would quickly bring me back to my American Football vs. Football analogy.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by xks

If FPS gamers are as simple as you say then why bother with any gametype other than DM in an empty sandbox with the same weapons and low health?

Have you heard of a game called CoD4? One of the most popular FPS games on the planet?

Or what about Halo? Gears of War? CS?

Weird.

The fact that they are incredibly popular, are played by more people than any other FPS currently (except for L4D, but odd how it's structured after these), and continue to retain their popularity years after release...

Well, you've proven that FPS gamers are as simple as I say.

Just because >you< and the fifty or so people that play FF >by the rules< think CTF is a fine game mode doesn't mean that it is. It's because you follow the game rules.

I challenge you to do something the moment you read this. Open your browser. Join any CTF server. Don't join a team. Examine the people playing. Don't say anything. Just sit there. Watching.

Tell me what you see, then, tell me why you think it's happening.

You'll soon realize that the amount of effort and tedium required to successfully pull of a structured game of CTF is greater than the effort required to double click on a server and join it.

This is why CTF is a broken game mode for public play. It's as simple as that. Stop frustrating yourself with wishful thinking on how you want public play to be. It's been like this since TFC and it will remain this way forever. It's like this in TF2 and FF. It's just how it is.

Join a clan. Join some pickups. Do something other than play in pubs. You'll soon realize that CTF in pub play is a really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, broken game mode.

[xks]

Originally Posted by Credge

Have you heard of a game called CoD4? One of the most popular FPS games on the planet?

Or what about Halo? Gears of War? CS?

Weird.

The fact that they are incredibly popular, are played by more people than any other FPS currently (except for L4D, but odd how it's structured after these), and continue to retain their popularity years after release...

Well, you've proven that FPS gamers are as simple as I say.

Just because >you< and the fifty or so people that play FF >by the rules< think CTF is a fine game mode doesn't mean that it is. It's because you follow the game rules.

I challenge you to do something the moment you read this. Open your browser. Join any CTF server. Don't join a team. Examine the people playing. Don't say anything. Just sit there. Watching.

Tell me what you see, then, tell me why you think it's happening.

You'll soon realize that the amount of effort and tedium required to successfully pull of a structured game of CTF is greater than the effort required to double click on a server and join it.

This is why CTF is a broken game mode for public play. It's as simple as that. Stop frustrating yourself with wishful thinking on how you want public play to be. It's been like this since TFC and it will remain this way forever. It's like this in TF2 and FF. It's just how it is.

Join a clan. Join some pickups. Do something other than play in pubs. You'll soon realize that CTF in pub play is a really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, broken game mode.

Yes CoD4 is popular, although still not as popular amongst the elite gamers as CoD2. CoD4 is only popular until Activision all but dump it in favour of their next release and most people move along again. I'd hardly say CoD4 is simple either, with experience based upgrades and a wide variety of tactics and 'realism' it's not easy to pick up and do well.

Halo and Gears of War are joke console games and no joke console game is ever going to be comparable to a solid PC based FPS, not until they start using mouse/keyboard as their preferred control system and I don't see that coming anytime soon. Also, Gears of War isn't an FPS, it's a third person shooter and has a different genre as a result of this so it isn't even really worthy to compare. In addition to this, for the record, I think Gears was a great game - for a console - and I enjoyed it a lot. Halo on the other hand was pants.

Since I've referenced CS multiple times in my posts you'd be aware I know of CS. I played CS at the highest level for multiple years and I am a veteran of that game more than most. I saw it develop and change from what was a very simple and promising mod to something that had more than 100k concurrent players at any one time of day. I explained in other posts exactly why CS works well. Are you trying to say that CS is a game for simple people and CTF isn't? because that's just a silly idea.

You do realise CTF is one of the most popular and influential multiplayer gametypes ever created? It might not be flavour of the month in it's more original form right now, which is all the more reason to take advantage of the market niche that FF could have rather than trying to go another direction.

Also for your information CTF in Quake had/has a much harder learning curve, played far faster, was far less forgiving and demanded a massive amount of practice and knowledge of maps compared to TFC/FF. Despite this it continues to thrive as part of Quake Live and very few players are complaining about how CTF works, funny that.

Everyone knows all of these team based multiplayer games are inferior on publics compared to pickups/clan matches. They all suffer from the same fundamental problems FF does, although sometimes in different ways. I could log onto any CS server now and sit there complaining how none of the maps work for public play and tell the world that the game is flawed for anything apart from clan matches, but it's not true is it.

As for myself joining an FF clan, I may do that if there was more of a community. I am not particularly interested in 2v2 and 4v4 pickups either. When I played TFC (also at the top level) 8v8 was the norm and didn't particularly enjoy anything less than that.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by xks

Yes CoD4 is popular, although still not as popular amongst the elite gamers as CoD2. CoD4 is only popular until Activision all but dump it in favour of their next release and most people move along again. I'd hardly say CoD4 is simple either, with experience based upgrades and a wide variety of tactics and 'realism' it's not easy to pick up and do well.

Halo and Gears of War are joke console games and no joke console game is ever going to be comparable to a solid PC based FPS, not until they start using mouse/keyboard as their preferred control system and I don't see that coming anytime soon. Also, Gears of War isn't an FPS, it's a third person shooter and has a different genre as a result of this so it isn't even really worthy to compare. In addition to this, for the record, I think Gears was a great game - for a console - and I enjoyed it a lot. Halo on the other hand was pants.

Since I've referenced CS multiple times in my posts you'd be aware I know of CS. I played CS at the highest level for multiple years and I am a veteran of that game more than most. I saw it develop and change from what was a very simple and promising mod to something that had more than 100k concurrent players at any one time of day. I explained in other posts exactly why CS works well. Are you trying to say that CS is a game for simple people and CTF isn't? because that's just a silly idea.

You do realise CTF is one of the most popular and influential multiplayer gametypes ever created? It might not be flavour of the month in it's more original form right now, which is all the more reason to take advantage of the market niche that FF could have rather than trying to go another direction.

Also for your information CTF in Quake had/has a much harder learning curve, played far faster, was far less forgiving and demanded a massive amount of practice and knowledge of maps compared to TFC/FF. Despite this it continues to thrive as part of Quake Live and very few players are complaining about how CTF works, funny that.

Everyone knows all of these team based multiplayer games are inferior on publics compared to pickups/clan matches. They all suffer from the same fundamental problems FF does, although sometimes in different ways. I could log onto any CS server now and sit there complaining how none of the maps work for public play and tell the world that the game is flawed for anything apart from clan matches, but it's not true is it.

As for myself joining an FF clan, I may do that if there was more of a community. I am not particularly interested in 2v2 and 4v4 pickups either. When I played TFC (also at the top level) 8v8 was the norm and didn't particularly enjoy anything less than that.

+ fucking 1

[BlisTer]

Originally Posted by xks

As for myself joining an FF clan, I may do that if there was more of a community. I am not particularly interested in 2v2 and 4v4 pickups either. When I played TFC (also at the top level) 8v8 was the norm and didn't particularly enjoy anything less than that.

4v4 isn't "anything less" than 8v8, matches just take longer, and you can develop your O and D skills.

[Ihmhi]

This could be moved to Debates & Arguments... and not because of any trolling or flaming, but because it very much fits the feeling of a debate, haha...

Since it hasn't that shows how disingenuous we are about the "Debates" part...

[xks]

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

+ fucking 1

<3

[[AE] 82694]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

This could be moved to Debates & Arguments... and not because of any trolling or flaming, but because it very much fits the feeling of a debate, haha...

Since it hasn't that shows how disingenuous we are about the "Debates" part...

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