Man shoots students at an Amish school.

[o_yomamashouse]

Originally Posted by uBeR

While I'm no pro NRA (I despise them for the most part), I fail to see in the Bible where it mentions thou shalt not weild a gun.

Ambiguity is the name of the game when it comes to the bible, that way when you get called on something you pull the old switcharoo on the meanings of all those damn pronouns and such.

I have read a few quotes and the only one that seemed definate was one about the need for the execution of homosexuals, one i found rather despicable.

Backstaber trust me you arent going to be protecting yourselves from the governement with guns. They dont come to your door with weapons, they steal and scheme and this is something that must be addressed with words. If, however, you were to arm all your citizens it would be very easy for those words to turn into horrific riots, riots that involve guns.

[o_backstaber]

What also has guns and the government also has control of? The Military. Thats what I mean about protection from the government. If the Government uses the military to suppress it's citizens. Who will protect us then? Ourselves. In order to protect ourselves from the military, we must also be armed with weapons that are of equal firepower in order to keep the balance.

[o_|404|innoc-tpf-]

Originally Posted by YoMamasHouse

Backstaber trust me you arent going to be protecting yourselves from the governement with guns. They dont come to your door with weapons, they steal and scheme and this is something that must be addressed with words. If, however, you were to arm all your citizens it would be very easy for those words to turn into horrific riots, riots that involve guns.

Even Jefferson, all those centuries, warned use against the complacencies you hold dear

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

[Decs]

I feel sorry for the victims and thoose affected by shooting.

Without getting to involved in this blame or dont blame guns debate, when you're using self defence as a way to defende weapons, isnt it true that its the availability of theese weapons thats spawning the problem, atleast to a certain degree, in the first place?

It seems to me atleast that theese things happen alot more frequently over there than it does in any other western country. Wether thats a result of weapons beeing easy to get a hold off for a normal citizen or if its some sort of social factor, i dont know.

Ofcourse, i could be wrong, for all i know there could be iincidents similar to this, happening just as frequently in countrys that arent as liberal when it comes to weapons, without the media putting as much focus on that as they do each time something happens over there.

[o_|404|innoc-tpf-]

Originally Posted by Backstaber

What also has guns and the government also has control of? The Military. Thats what I mean about protection from the government. If the Government uses the military to suppress it's citizens. Who will protect us then? Ourselves. In order to protect ourselves from the military, we must also be armed with weapons that are of equal firepower in order to keep the balance.

You overlook times of civil unrest when Gov't can't even help itself. Look at that lawlessness that followed in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. The Gov't cannot be everywhere and the Police are NEVER there to protect us. They're there to find out WHAT HAPPENED, after the fact.

[o_kbomb]

Hey Innoc I don't think you understood the point french toast made in his most recent post.

He wasn't saying that you coulden't show examples of situations where guns helped ward off a "bad guy" - but instead that there are much more occurances of malicious shootings/crime.

And I for one would totally agree - To me its practically comical you post 3 or 4 short little blurbs where guns saved someone when I could easily post HUNDREDS of articles where the opposite was true from just the last week.

[o_|404|innoc-tpf-]

Originally Posted by decs

I feel sorry for the victims and thoose affected by shooting.

Without getting to involved in this blame or dont blame guns debate, when you're using self defence as a way to defende weapons, isnt it true that its the availability of theese weapons thats spawning the problem, atleast to a certain degree, in the first place?

It seems to me atleast that theese things happen alot more frequently over there than it does in any other western country. Wether thats a result of weapons beeing easy to get a hold off for a normal citizen or if its some sort of social factor, i dont know.

Ofcourse, i could be wrong, for all i know there could be similar incidents similar to this, happening just as frequently in countrys that arent as liberal when it comes to weapons, without the media putting as much focus on that as they do each time something happens over there.

Decs, I think other things have far more blame. I think the spiraling of our civilization into the toilet...the defining down of deviancy....the continued disconnection from even our neighbors contrinbutes greatly to this. We're less in touch with others than ever before. I also think the proactive work towards desensitization to violence and the dehumanization of others also contributes. It's all around us. I think it further serves to make that threshhold lower and lower for a damaged mind already predisposed to do something like this.

[o_|404|innoc-tpf-]

Originally Posted by Kbomb

Hey Innoc I don't think you understood the point french toast made in his most recent post.

He wasn't saying that you coulden't show examples of situations where guns helped ward off a "bad guy" - but instead that there are much more occurances of malicious shootings/crime.

And I for one would totally agree - To me its practically comical you post 3 or 4 short little blurbs where guns saved someone when I could easily post HUNDREDS of articles where the opposite was true from just the last week.

No, I did understand. He was being his typical ignorant troll self with nothing useful to contribute.

Originally Posted by French Toast

Aye, likewise for you

"OMG GUNS GUNS GOD GOD REPENT GUNS REPENT GUNS GUNS GOD GOD GOD <3 BUSH" etc.

Yeah, being an NRA member I'm sure you get to read about glorifying guns all the time. The rest of us not lubing guns up to fuck instead of girls get to read about all the other more frequent shootings.

Yeah...lot's of value there.

As far as 3 or 4 "comical" quotes go clearly you did not click the link I posted nor did you search. There's THOUSANDS of quoted news stories there. So, put up or shut up. Post something that shows that the opposite was true.

[o_theres *nothing* here]

Originally Posted by puppychow

[begin propaganda]

A study from El Salvador showed that people who attempted to use a gun in selfdefence were four times as likely to die as those who did not.

A 2003 study in the US showed that having a gun in the home increases the risk of someone in the household being murdered by 41%.

Domestic violence is more likely to be lethal if there is a gun in the home. For women, the risk of being killed if there is a gun in the home is increased by 172%.

Most importantly - JESUS DOES NOT LIKE GUNS, NOR WOULD HE HAVE USED THEM!1!1!1!1!$%^&*

just a fyi.

[/end propaganda]

Jesus didn't need guns, duh? He had walls of water, thunder, and earthquakes at his disposal.

On the other hand, if I had a house full of guns, I wouldn't shoot anybody.

I'm not a killer sort of guy.

But in the end, people use guns to kill people. Nothing will change that, and having guns around does increase that chance. It just happens in some places more than others, and taking guns away from those places will probably solve the problem but..

What's stopping them from stabbing each other in the eye with toothpicks, gagging people on fish sticks?

Oh, don't forget alcohol. That should be banned too, because it's flammable.

Gun's aren't the problem. People are.

But you can't change people. So you'll probably have to take away the guns.



And I like to think, you're lucky if you die. You won't even know it. I'd rather have that, than have my spine shot up and live the rest of my life as a veggie.

[Decs]

In response to innoc
Yes im sure that can be a very important factor to all of this, there has to be more to the equation than just guns. Yet, having guns accessable in such a society feels a bit like adding fire to gasoline.
In norway even the police doesnt wear sidearms, so obviously what i come from is pretty different and therefor its harder to get a real feeling for how it is over there. It just seems a bit weird to me.

Edit: bah, i cant type or spell at all now, its 5 am and my eyes are all itchy

[o_backstaber]

Well, there are a lot more ethnic minorities over here. Different types of people from all over the world. Some of them might not get along with each other, (or themselves for the matter).

[o_yomamashouse]

A neighbourhood full of guns is not entirely safe or completely dangerous. Sort of reminds me about a thesis on human technology. The more advanced we get the closer we get to saving our species from our mortal sun by travelling away, but at the same time we make it so much easier to wipe ourselves out in a heartbeat with new and gruesome weapons that level miles of land. It is similar in the respect that if you give every single person a gun, they can use the guns for security, but at the same time they could use it for some fairly horrid things. Think of the number of violent crimes today, now imagine all the people who have violent/criminal minds but are generally surpressed by the inability to aquire a gun added on to that. You will have safe neighbourhoods, and you will have areas that erupt into utter chaos. Then the already over extended military will be even more hard pressed.

[o_kbomb]

Innoc,

Yes actually I did read that idiotic article, my favorite part was this:

"Naturally, anti-gunners will downplay the downward trend in violent crime since 1991, and focus on the fact that the FBI’s report showed a 1% increase in total violent crime, and a 2% increase in murder in 2005, compared to 2004. But those changes are miniscule, compared to the huge decrease in crime over the last 14 years."

hahaha........haha

In other news, I recently got a new car and have not seen any elephants near my house - therefore my new car must repell elephants!!!

[o_theres *nothing* here]

It's 5am over there? D:

Well, Backstaber, you're just not making sense.

Besides, if you guys tried to riot- Bush would squash you like little bugs.


READ MY POST YOU BUMS.

[o_uber]

Originally Posted by |404|Innoc-TPF-

Decs, I think other things have far more blame. I think the spiraling of our civilization into the toilet...the defining down of deviancy....the continued disconnection from even our neighbors contrinbutes greatly to this. We're less in touch with others than ever before. I also think the proactive work towards desensitization to violence and the dehumanization of others also contributes. It's all around us. I think it further serves to make that threshhold lower and lower for a damaged mind already predisposed to do something like this.

I still have yet to see how putting a gun in every person's hand solve these problems.

The problem I have with the NRA site you posted is that it fails to note any sources. (Mostly because I'm sure they're unreliable.) Nevertheless, I reiterate, I'm sure there are plenty of instances where guns have saved a typical owner from theft, but I'm quite sure there are plenty times more cases where an opposite or negative effect has occured.

Anyway, I was browing some Minnesota related sites, and found this one in particular interesting and relevant. http://www.gunguys.com/?cat=19

P.S. NRA care more about their money than your rights. Read "NRA:Money, Firepower & Fear"

[o_yomamashouse]

Originally Posted by theres *nothing* here

Gun's aren't the problem. People are.

But you can't change people. So you'll probably have to take away the guns.

That pretty much sums it up i think. Cant take away the greatest problem, so just take away their tools instead.

[Decs]

Jeez, posts pop up fast here, this was in reply to backstabber:
First of all, its not like we dont have minoritys/ethnical people here.
Second, you dont HAVE to own firearms just because there are ethnical people around? :P

[o_backstaber]

Originally Posted by theres *nothing* here

It's 5am over there?

Well, Backstaber, you're just not making sense.

Besides, if you guys tried to riot- Bush would squash you like little bugs.


READ MY POST YOU BUMS.

Maybe your unable to comprehend common-sense?

When I'm talking about going against a bad government, I'm talking about a civil revolt. Where the majority of the citizens rise up against the faulty government and replace it with one that keeps thier interests in mind.

Only way to do that is if you have weapons that have equal fire-power to the current military, because in the case of a civil-revolt, the military will likely be used to suppress it.

Can that make any more sense? Or must I write a ten page report with the same stuff but more words?

Originally Posted by decs

Jeez, posts pop up fast here, this was in reply to backstabber:
First of all, its not like we dont have minoritys/ethnical people here.
Second, you dont HAVE to own firearms just because there are ethnical people around? :P

But you don't have large amounts of different ethnics from all over the world.

And I never meant that because we have different ethnical people we must own guns. We would own guns away even if they were not around. But what I am saying is that because we have so many different cultures, some of their ideals disagree with each other and can cause conflict.

[o_|404|innoc-tpf-]

You guys have yet to read the link I posted. You're reading Silver Foxes link...every last one of you. What I posted was the Armed Citizen which has the database of stories that the NRA has reprinted from various newspapers. Each of the small sampling of stories I posted HAS it's citation as to where it came from and the date it was published:
Gazette-Journal, Reno, NV, 1/18/06
Las Vegas Review-Journal, Las Vegas, NV, 10/05/05
Pahrump Valley Times, Pahrump Valley, NV, 10/20/04
Las Vegas Sun, Las Vegas, NV, 12/24/04
No NRA slant there...it's coming from the various local rags they were originally published in or at least where the NRA became aware of it.

So, Kbomb, my request stands. Post something showing the opposite to be true. I can literally post thousands showing where a firearm saved someones life from a scumbag.

Since you guys completely ignored or overlooked my link here it is again.

I'd post a link by state to make it easier but they're using ASP so I cannot. Go to the bottom of the page and simply select a state and go from there. Select your state. I believe the default sorting is byt reverse chronological order. All citations are in place.

[Decs]

Originally Posted by Backstaber

But you don't have large amounts of different ethnics from all over the world.

Haha what are you even basing this on?
Trust me when i say this, we have a large ammount of different ethnics over here aswell. My mother works as a language teacher for theese people and through that ive had some small jobs here and there at that school, and yes, we have alot of different ethnics. From Russia and Ghana to Pakistan and Iraq, and the list goes on :P.

Edit: And we have a good density of ethnic people aswell, im not saying we have one or two individuals :P