04-18-2012, 12:06 AM | #42 |
Stuff Do-er
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I watched that when it was linked in the pickup channel as well. It's quite good.
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04-18-2012, 12:46 AM | #43 |
Nade Whore
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Hell yeah, Metal Warriors @ 1:58, one of the best SNES games ever.
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04-18-2012, 08:45 AM | #44 | |
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what important experience in learning to play FF pickups do you think comes explicity by having the crap kicked out of you over and over? in addition to that probably being quite demoralising for most new players, the big problem is that this makes the pickup unbalanced because atm (for many reasons, which we could go into if needed) it's extremely hard to reliably have well balanced teams with just one inexperienced player in a pickup (even if everyone is trying their best to make them so). imo we need to try to make it easier to have well balanced teams with an inexperienced player/players in pickups, while also helping them learn to play and obviously enjoying doing so. any other ideas? Last edited by caesium; 04-18-2012 at 08:48 AM. |
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04-18-2012, 11:01 AM | #45 |
Nade Whore
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^ This is why I am so in favor of pubs over pickup servers for newcomers. Pubs give the newer players a way to learn the basics of what to do and what not to do.
Yes, you can become better in a pickup environment because you have more of a challenge and things are more controlled, but there needs to be some sort of ground-level training and I think a pub environment is much better. Surely, pub play will be more chaotic. It's not a frenzy of competitive play for the sake of showing off. After all, getting the highest score in a pub server doesn't really mean much, right? Because you're playing against a bunch of noobs? Well, that's only partly true because I've played FF since its release and TFC long before that and I still enjoy pubs more than pickups or competitive play. So am I the one exception? Doubtful. I think people who stick around mostly started playing in pubs, especially with regards to TFC. There's no one here who strictly played pickups when they started playing, because they hadn't yet learned the ropes, or learned things on their own. Nobody wants to spectate and meticulously watch someone else play in a pickup, just as nobody wants to add to a pickup, only to realize just how much of a noob people can make them feel. That just creates an even bigger hurdle to overcome, at least in the mind of a newcomer. |
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04-18-2012, 04:29 PM | #46 |
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04-18-2012, 04:57 PM | #47 | |
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I'd say that giving a handicap to people would be even less fair for the experienced players than having to play on un even teams. And I still don't think that it'd be better for a new player than just playing the game. It's hard to explain what's to gain out of having your ass handed to you. But the best way to get good is to play against the best, and they're going to hand your ass to you. I sure there's some point where, it'd be more beneficial to play against someone who's a fair deal better than you, as opposed to the people who play now that leaps and bounds ahead of new players. But it still works out. |
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04-18-2012, 09:19 PM | #48 | |
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I see no problem with handicaps if the server owner manages them. Would be good for servers designed with new players in mind. (which there aren't right now, maybe because there aren't many mechanics for these things?) |
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04-18-2012, 10:42 PM | #49 | |
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From FDA's (and personally, my) point of view, one of the best ways to learn is by playing against and with very good players. Handicapping a player is detracting from an otherwise harsh, but efficient and tried-and-true learning experience: how are you supposed to get better unless you learn the hard way, and play with those who have a deep understanding of the game? Handicapping would detract from any positive effects that "getting your ass handed to you" or, from my perspective, "learning the hard way, but learning well in the end" has on the newer player. On the flip side, handicaps can give newer players some form of confidence and a little buffer for those who would prefer to not have the new player experience as it is now in FF and in Quake Live: playing against godly people and getting their ass kicked for countless pickups until they take what they have experienced and witnessed and put it to use through their own means and have come out a better player in the end because of it. Handicaps help ensure that pickups can be slightly more fair and gives the newer players some spirit instead of putting them through a horrific mono-genocide, but at the same time, it also makes them relatively unfair -- more experienced players should kick the asses of newer players, that's just how games with high skill ceilings like FF, Quake, Tribes, Doom, etc. work. I'm fully willing to accept this getting-my-ass-handed-to-me-for-a-while philosophy, and I'm in the earliest stages of playing pickups. My personal opinion is that newer players should get destroyed by veterans, but that on the flip side, veterans should be more than willing to help out newer players in any ways that they possibly can, in order to breed more strong competitive players in the end for more variety in pickups. I know every team that I have been on has been helpful in teaching me positioning, where to put jump pads, where/how to conc, which routes to take, and the like, which I am very grateful for. /twocents |
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04-18-2012, 11:42 PM | #50 | |
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I stand by my opinion. The best way to learn is to play the game the way it's meant to be. There are certain things that could be done to help new players learn faster, but a handicap is not one of them. |
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04-18-2012, 11:55 PM | #51 | |
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And, once again I emphasize, this is an idea that probably cannot be implemented without a population. |
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04-19-2012, 12:02 AM | #52 |
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Aye, a lot of these ideas would only work with an at least moderate population, and right now FF's is far too small for anything like this, or things such as league divisions. If there were roughly 100 participants even in a league there could be 2-3 divisions, but as it stands, that can't really happen, not enough people.
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04-19-2012, 10:10 AM | #53 | ||||||
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/quotewars btw my personal feeling is that handicaps are not a good idea, although i struggle to justify why logically other than potential admin over-use/abuse. |
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04-19-2012, 07:53 PM | #54 |
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If players had rankings then you could balance the teams better so new playres dont always lose, but also new players could gain ranking as they improve, despite losing a lot. If they lose by less and less then they are clearly improving.
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04-19-2012, 09:43 PM | #55 | |
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I would love to see player rankings come into effect, but obviously that would take a lot of time and effort to make. It would really simplify team picking. Imagine if you are thinking of who to pick for a team, and you know that you need a good demo. If you could type "!rank demoman" ingame and have a drop down list showing everyone's rank as a demoman, you could make more educated picks. |
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04-19-2012, 10:46 PM | #56 |
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Creating ranks for this game, while a solid idea in my opinion, would be extremely difficult to implement well.
There are just so many factors in a game as complex as this that would need to be taken into account when determining the rank, unlike games like QL, where you can just go off of K/D, where/how you place in a match, etc. |
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04-19-2012, 11:12 PM | #57 |
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The simplest system is just: win game = gain ranking, lose game = lose ranking. How balanced the teams were to start with would decide how much ranking you'd gain/lose.
A more sophisticated system could estimate the score as well as who would win, so if it guesses team A will win 120-70 and team A wins 100-90 then potentially team B gains some ranking. It might make games a bit more fun if you know you're probably going to lose but you at least have a score to aim for. Like you say, parsing logs from games and working out how good each player was might not be very accurate (but interesting to have stats on players as another feature too though). Last edited by AfterShock; 04-19-2012 at 11:12 PM. |
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04-19-2012, 11:55 PM | #58 |
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Yeah AS, it could be something as simple as that, then just work in the future to make the ranking system more complex/detailed/based off things other than just win/lose games.
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04-20-2012, 01:00 AM | #59 |
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I hate to say it..........
But I believe the snipers rifle is under powered. It is a .50 cal sniper rifle. It should do three times that damage. Also make it so that I can sniper while jumping in the air which would be a plus. Make the sniper move faster while using the scope and a conc nade wouldnt hurt either so that I can get to some high up sniper spots. The sniper class is the most respectfull in my eyes and people generally love playing against it and playing it. We at the sniper brigade ask that this class be moved up in strength and speed since we are spammed way to much on our platforms.
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04-21-2012, 01:23 PM | #60 |
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I have a stupid idea to throw out there.
Hows about you put all the weapons, hit boxes, damage taken and given, strength and weakness settings back to vanilla such as what we see in tfc. (oohhhh I used that word again!) I guess the reason I say this is that I think they had something there. The game was a success for a long time because... well.... the balance WORKED.
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