Snipers! They don't belong. - Page 24

Green Mushy · 02-15-2010, 04:30 PM

I feel exactly the same about the sniper in CTF as i do in AVD.

GenghisTron · 02-15-2010, 05:19 PM

Why is that?

Think about it, since assisted movement is largely used in AvD, and is sometimes unbalanced (It's not exactly easy to stop someone flying in the air that fast, and it's also quite hard to det a CP when they're flying that fast), a sniper is the perfect counter-balance for assisted movement. Also in AvD, both teams will have a sniper, so it's not like playing a small-scale CTF game where you have 1 sniper who can kill pretty much everything and feel secure about doing it. A lot of AvD maps also make it hard for a sniper to get good cover (Ksour is a good example). Snipers aren't nearly as unbalanced in AvD as they are in CTF. That being said, they still need fixing, but I don't see why you'd be opposed to them in AvD. If you get rid of sniper (affecting AvD) you might as well get rid of assisted movement, because then anyone can play demo and launch their teammates across the map with 0 consequence.

Bridget · 02-15-2010, 05:35 PM

I don't know how to really explain my feelings toward Snipers in Attack and Defend maps. I realize that when I am piping across the map as a Demoman off a few pipes, that there's little the defense can do to stop me, and that it would be unfair if the defense didn't have some counter-measure to prevent me from so easily capping the flag. However, the Sniper's mechanic is still broken, however useful it becomes in these maps. Instead of perpetuating a broken mechanic simply because it gets a job down that nothing else does, we should be fixing the defense to be able to prevent these scenarios as a whole.

GenghisTron · 02-15-2010, 07:06 PM

Yea, I fully acknowledge they need fixing, but let's call a spade a spade here, and realize that the sniper is still relevant (Using it's current mechanic) in AvD.

chilledsanity · 02-15-2010, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Think about it, since assisted movement is largely used in AvD, and is sometimes unbalanced (It's not exactly easy to stop someone flying in the air that fast, and it's also quite hard to det a CP when they're flying that fast), a sniper is the perfect counter-balance for assisted movement.

I have to disagree a bit here. Depending on the situation, it takes a LOT of skill to stop someone being blasted through the air flying at the flag. While the sniper is certainly CAPABLE of fulfilling this role, a sniper of average skill is less likely to stop this maneuver.

In TFC, this sort of action was prevented by the SG stopping them before they could reach the cap. Now that it's been weakened so much in FF, it no longer has the push nor damage to stop the player before he flies in and caps. It will kill him, but often not before capping.

Since the sg is no longer the safeguard it once was, the responsibility is unloaded onto other classes, where it can be much more difficult for them. So while I'm not disagreeing that the sniper CAN perform this role, the perfect counter-balance he is not.

GenghisTron · 02-15-2010, 08:04 PM

It depends on the map. For a map like ksour, there aren't that many places for the defense to pipe launche, and since the passageways are consolidated/confined, it would be easier to snipe on a map like ksour. Snipers can also prevent the pipes from being detted in the first place, or injure the flag carrier before he even takes off. Offensive snipers also can be used effectively to kill key defenders, take out sentry guns, etc. I guess in the end, it depends on the map.

Born_In_Xixax · 02-15-2010, 08:18 PM

Well, I think AvD improves on some of the objections to utility of the sniper, in that what he does more directly complements the objectives of the team: he is less useless in AvD. Also, since the entire opposing team is moving forward into the 'yard' on the attack - instead of a small handful of 'offense' in CTF, the annoyance tax the sniper extracts is less noticeable.

I still think that the underlying mechanic and engagement model - point and click instant kills on defenseless players who are not interacting with you - is not ideal and could be improved. I think the best suggestions in that area so far are to either make damage dependent on distance (creating tension between being more effective and exposing yourself to danger), or to make sniping at range more difficult (via gravity drop and/or a hud windsock that you have to compensate for, or possibly switching to a projectile model.)

To me the ideal sniper class would have a tactical/situational role at range (tagging/slow-down, some minimal damage) but would gain increasing lethality at mid to close range, where engagement with other classes becomes possible. He needs better movement options too - like concs or being able to run/gun when unscoped. I think being mobile on the attack, changing up sniping spots quickly on defense, sneaking closer to emplaced enemies to be more effective - sounds like more of a fun role than the current battlements sniping action.

chilledsanity · 02-15-2010, 08:59 PM

Actually in AvD I think he's even more useful on offense. He can take out HWguys, demomen with pipes laid, and sg's among other things. For defense, he's not useless, but I view him purely as a support class then. I'd say his most useful role there is taking out spies that get through the front ranks. I'm happy to have defensive snipers in big games, I usually wish he was another class for smaller ones.

Ventry(Leo Wainker) · 02-17-2010, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mervaka

so in short, you're putting the onus back onto the victim to "get skills"? hardly appealing to new players.

So, I guess the answer is to keep "dumbing" down the game-play to make it "new player" friendly.
Then you end up with..... Well......

Team Fortress 2

LOL. Good luck with that.

I'm a special case. With a 250+ ping hitscan weapons are the only time I get a fair shake. Any weapon that requires the game engine to draw and move a model of the ammo across the map (e.g rockets, pipes, nails, tranq darts etc.) there is a 1/4 of a second delay between when I aim and click the fire button and when the weapon actually fires. Plenty of time for an enemy to get out of the way.

At the moment the sniper makes the mod fun for me.

Last time I played "Medieval" I had an enemy soldier, pyro and 2 spies chasing me around the map trying to get me.
They did on many occasions.
Guess who's team won that map?
I'd like to think that if I can get those dudes to chase me instead of defending or attacking then I'm helping my team.
My job done.

Leave the sniper or take the sniper out. I don't care one way or the other. (it's the choice of the devs.)

However if the sniper is removed it is more than likely I will move to something that is fun for me.

For me it is annoying how pathetic the sentry gun is in FF compared to TFC.
Nuff said.

Dr.Satan · 02-17-2010, 11:34 PM

where are you from that you are playing with 250 ping 24/7?

Bridget · 02-17-2010, 11:40 PM

Kangaroo Land

Dr.Satan · 02-17-2010, 11:48 PM

dam...that's insane!

**mervaka** · 02-18-2010, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

So, I guess the answer is to keep "dumbing" down the game-play to make it "new player" friendly.
...
Leave the sniper or take the sniper out. I don't care one way or the other. (it's the choice of the devs.)

However if the sniper is removed it is more than likely I will move to something that is fun for me.

but there comes a point where the skill ceiling is so high, the skill floor raises with it. keeping the skill floor down is no easy feat. we need to keep FF accessible to new players.

achieving the objective should be rewarded, but more importantly working towards the objective should be fun. in CTF, being sniped at the doorway of your own base is pretty widely accepted to not be fun. therefore it's a problem.

xks · 02-18-2010, 05:22 PM

If you want FF to be accessible to new players then remove BHing before you do anything else.

Grenades are the other massive gap between good players and new players, but I'd hate to see those removed as well.

This is long before you get anywhere near the Sniper being a problem. Especially since Sniper is probably one of the most entertaining classes for newbs to play.

eomoyaff · 02-19-2010, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

So, I guess the answer is to keep "dumbing" down the game-play to make it "new player" friendly.
Then you end up with..... Well......

Team Fortress 2

LOL. Good luck with that.

I'm a special case. With a 250+ ping hitscan weapons are the only time I get a fair shake. Any weapon that requires the game engine to draw and move a model of the ammo across the map (e.g rockets, pipes, nails, tranq darts etc.) there is a 1/4 of a second delay between when I aim and click the fire button and when the weapon actually fires. Plenty of time for an enemy to get out of the way.

At the moment the sniper makes the mod fun for me.

Last time I played "Medieval" I had an enemy soldier, pyro and 2 spies chasing me around the map trying to get me.
They did on many occasions.
Guess who's team won that map?
I'd like to think that if I can get those dudes to chase me instead of defending or attacking then I'm helping my team.
My job done.

Leave the sniper or take the sniper out. I don't care one way or the other. (it's the choice of the devs.)

However if the sniper is removed it is more than likely I will move to something that is fun for me.

For me it is annoying how pathetic the sentry gun is in FF compared to TFC.
Nuff said.

YEEAAaaaaAAhhh! Leo in the forums! Hollly shit

!

But yeah, Leo also play's engi at times. Seems kind of hard for him. But he made a good point I think. In that manner they belong :P

Raynian · 02-19-2010, 05:24 PM

When snipers admit to having four people chase them around, because they're so pissed off, you know something's wrong.

Gwarsbane · 02-19-2010, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raynian

When snipers admit to having four people chase them around, because they're so pissed off, you know something's wrong.

No it just means they are doing their job in distracting the enemy, giving their own team a chance to either break up the enemy defense or regroup and strengthen their own defense.

So if 4 people are chasing 1 sniper, thats 4 less people his team has to worry about.

Bridget · 02-19-2010, 08:03 PM

The end doesn't justify the means. The distraction is caused from trying to counter a broken class.

Ventry(Leo Wainker) · 02-20-2010, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

The end doesn't justify the means. The distraction is caused from trying to counter a broken class.

That is a matter of opinion only.
This is where your argument breaks down.
You opinion doesn't suit everyone.
You see it as broken.
Whereas I see it as just another game "mechanic" that you need to learn to avoid.

All this "new player" friendly stuff can only go so far before you completely nerf the game/mod.

A "new player" that quits because he gets sniped often will also quit because a scout, demo, medic, spy etc. keeps killing him or blowing up sentry etc.
"New players" have to stick around to "learn" you can't avoid it. If they really want to "learn" they will.

For the life of me I can't think of one multi-player game where I haven't got my ass completely whipped when I first played it.
If I like the format I stick at it.

**squeek.** · 02-20-2010, 03:52 AM

How do you learn to avoid a sniper? Does getting shot help my chances of avoiding the next shot? How can I tell what I did wrong that got me shot?

02-15-2010, 05:19 PM	#462
GenghisTron AKA LittleAndroidMan D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dystopia Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times	Why is that? Think about it, since assisted movement is largely used in AvD, and is sometimes unbalanced (It's not exactly easy to stop someone flying in the air that fast, and it's also quite hard to det a CP when they're flying that fast), a sniper is the perfect counter-balance for assisted movement. Also in AvD, both teams will have a sniper, so it's not like playing a small-scale CTF game where you have 1 sniper who can kill pretty much everything and feel secure about doing it. A lot of AvD maps also make it hard for a sniper to get good cover (Ksour is a good example). Snipers aren't nearly as unbalanced in AvD as they are in CTF. That being said, they still need fixing, but I don't see why you'd be opposed to them in AvD. If you get rid of sniper (affecting AvD) you might as well get rid of assisted movement, because then anyone can play demo and launch their teammates across the map with 0 consequence. __________________ The Catacombs Steam Last.fm

02-15-2010, 07:06 PM	#464
GenghisTron AKA LittleAndroidMan D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dystopia Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times	Yea, I fully acknowledge they need fixing, but let's call a spade a spade here, and realize that the sniper is still relevant (Using it's current mechanic) in AvD. __________________ The Catacombs Steam Last.fm

02-15-2010, 08:04 PM	#466
GenghisTron AKA LittleAndroidMan D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dystopia Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times	It depends on the map. For a map like ksour, there aren't that many places for the defense to pipe launche, and since the passageways are consolidated/confined, it would be easier to snipe on a map like ksour. Snipers can also prevent the pipes from being detted in the first place, or injure the flag carrier before he even takes off. Offensive snipers also can be used effectively to kill key defenders, take out sentry guns, etc. I guess in the end, it depends on the map. __________________ The Catacombs Steam Last.fm Last edited by GenghisTron; 02-15-2010 at 08:05 PM.

02-17-2010, 11:34 PM	#470
Dr.Satan Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greeley, CO Class/Position: Med / Solly Gametype: PAYLOAD Affiliations: DET- Posts Rated Helpful 19 Times	where are you from that you are playing with 250 ping 24/7? __________________ FF Community Map Pack(s): 1 / 2 (Released) conc_school \| hellion_classic \| ksour_PAYLOAD \| mulch_faf (Beta) alchimy_b1 (Lua) base_payload_2015 (Models) props_trainyard Support FF:

02-17-2010, 11:48 PM	#472
Dr.Satan Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greeley, CO Class/Position: Med / Solly Gametype: PAYLOAD Affiliations: DET- Posts Rated Helpful 19 Times	dam...that's insane! __________________ FF Community Map Pack(s): 1 / 2 (Released) conc_school \| hellion_classic \| ksour_PAYLOAD \| mulch_faf (Beta) alchimy_b1 (Lua) base_payload_2015 (Models) props_trainyard Support FF:

02-15-2010, 04:30 PM	#461
Green Mushy Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times	I feel exactly the same about the sniper in CTF as i do in AVD.

02-15-2010, 05:35 PM	#463
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	I don't know how to really explain my feelings toward Snipers in Attack and Defend maps. I realize that when I am piping across the map as a Demoman off a few pipes, that there's little the defense can do to stop me, and that it would be unfair if the defense didn't have some counter-measure to prevent me from so easily capping the flag. However, the Sniper's mechanic is still broken, however useful it becomes in these maps. Instead of perpetuating a broken mechanic simply because it gets a job down that nothing else does, we should be fixing the defense to be able to prevent these scenarios as a whole.

02-15-2010, 08:18 PM	#467
Born_In_Xixax Join Date: Nov 2009 Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	Well, I think AvD improves on some of the objections to utility of the sniper, in that what he does more directly complements the objectives of the team: he is less useless in AvD. Also, since the entire opposing team is moving forward into the 'yard' on the attack - instead of a small handful of 'offense' in CTF, the annoyance tax the sniper extracts is less noticeable. I still think that the underlying mechanic and engagement model - point and click instant kills on defenseless players who are not interacting with you - is not ideal and could be improved. I think the best suggestions in that area so far are to either make damage dependent on distance (creating tension between being more effective and exposing yourself to danger), or to make sniping at range more difficult (via gravity drop and/or a hud windsock that you have to compensate for, or possibly switching to a projectile model.) To me the ideal sniper class would have a tactical/situational role at range (tagging/slow-down, some minimal damage) but would gain increasing lethality at mid to close range, where engagement with other classes becomes possible. He needs better movement options too - like concs or being able to run/gun when unscoped. I think being mobile on the attack, changing up sniping spots quickly on defense, sneaking closer to emplaced enemies to be more effective - sounds like more of a fun role than the current battlements sniping action.

02-15-2010, 08:59 PM	#468
chilledsanity D&A Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times	Actually in AvD I think he's even more useful on offense. He can take out HWguys, demomen with pipes laid, and sg's among other things. For defense, he's not useless, but I view him purely as a support class then. I'd say his most useful role there is taking out spies that get through the front ranks. I'm happy to have defensive snipers in big games, I usually wish he was another class for smaller ones.

02-17-2010, 11:40 PM	#471
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Kangaroo Land

02-18-2010, 05:22 PM	#474
xks Exceedingly Correct. Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: London, England. Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	If you want FF to be accessible to new players then remove BHing before you do anything else. Grenades are the other massive gap between good players and new players, but I'd hate to see those removed as well. This is long before you get anywhere near the Sniper being a problem. Especially since Sniper is probably one of the most entertaining classes for newbs to play.

02-19-2010, 05:24 PM	#476
Raynian D&A Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Ruining #pickups Class/Position: SPAWN CAMPING OH NO Gametype: Ragequitting Affiliations: [PMS]. [Shiney] Posts Rated Helpful 26 Times	When snipers admit to having four people chase them around, because they're so pissed off, you know something's wrong.

02-19-2010, 08:03 PM	#478
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	The end doesn't justify the means. The distraction is caused from trying to counter a broken class.

02-20-2010, 03:52 AM	#480
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	How do you learn to avoid a sniper? Does getting shot help my chances of avoiding the next shot? How can I tell what I did wrong that got me shot? __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington Last edited by squeek.; 02-20-2010 at 03:53 AM.

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