Well, they did it. They made TF2 an MMORPG

[Everything]

Originally Posted by Desyphur

I really don't see how this would make TF2 bad. It seems interesting.

This.

Hey, Partial.. hi.

[StoneFrog]

Originally Posted by Desyphur

I really don't see how this would make TF2 bad. It seems interesting.

RPG Elements + TF2 = Interesting Concept

RPG Elements + A Team Fortress Game = BLASPHEMY!

[MonoXideAtWork]

For people who don't play TF2, you people sure are bitching a lot.

[[AE] 82694]

Originally Posted by PartialSchism

STFU 583.

Yes im calling you by your number cuz im PISSED! u dirty fanboy

LOL 228

[GigaBowserX]

Really, my impression is that if you pick up an unlockable you don't have, you unlock it rather then using achievements.

It'll probably work well, providing that Valve doesn't go any further with RPG elements.

[StoneFrog]

Originally Posted by GigaBowserX

Really, my impression is that if you pick up an unlockable you don't have, you unlock it rather then using achievements.

It'll probably work well, providing that Valve doesn't go any further with RPG elements.

Perhaps, but there should still be some incentive for those who did earn the achievements. Perhaps dropped weapons could have some small variants, such as slightly lower damage/rate of fire percentage or less ammunition, whilst the ones earned via achievements are "perfect" and don't have any of those flaws.

[PartialSchism]

Originally Posted by Kenny

Hey, Partial.. hi.

Originally Posted by [AE] 82694

LOL 228

oh Hai!

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by Bridget

veryone bred on Fortress Classic and the original Quake TF judges it with the wrong standards. It's a fun, whacky, comic game that I enjoy from time to time. I don't take it seriously, I just play and have fun. If I want grenades and faster movement, concussion grenades, grenades in general, and all that jazz; I play the original, classic, or Fortress Forever. Judge it for what it is, not what you think it should have been.

but it's supposed to be a TF game. like you say, it *should have been* a TF game. they simply used the franchise to make people look. it's not a TF game as we remember TF to be.

[StoneFrog]

Exactly. In essence, it's like what Blizzard did to the Warcraft series when they created WoW.

"Ohai here's an MMORPG that totally breaks any lore established from Warcraft I, II, or III. On the bright side, it's made by Blizzard, and it has Orcs and hawt Night Elf pr0nz, so that's good enough for you, right?"

Valve should've made it more obvious it was going to be a "spiritual sequel" to Team Fortress Classic. Hell, they should have taken the name "Gang Garrison" before that was taken. :P

However, what perturbs me the most is that Robin Walker and John Cook, the creators of QWTF and later hired by Valve to work on TFC, are completely content with the direction their game is going. Have they been brainwashed? I think they need to be invited onto the IRC channels and partake in a match of their old game again...

[GigaBowserX]

Originally Posted by StoneFrog

Perhaps, but there should still be some incentive for those who did earn the achievements. Perhaps dropped weapons could have some small variants, such as slightly lower damage/rate of fire percentage or less ammunition, whilst the ones earned via achievements are "perfect" and don't have any of those flaws.

Hell no.

Incentives for achievements lead to achievement farming, which wrecks TF2 whenever a class update comes out.

[StoneFrog]

Don't we already have achievement farming?

[GigaBowserX]

Originally Posted by StoneFrog

Don't we already have achievement farming?

Which is why there shouldn't still be incentives for achievements with the assumed system.

We don't want it anymore.

[StoneFrog]

Originally Posted by GigaBowserX

Which is why there shouldn't still be incentives for achievements with the assumed system.

Yeah, so let's drop achievements altogether. :P

Team Fortress games should reward players with a sense of self-accomplishment and improvement in the game. Advancement up that steep steep learning curve. At least that's how it used to be.

[GigaBowserX]

Originally Posted by StoneFrog

Yeah, so let's drop achievements altogether. :P

Team Fortress games should reward players with a sense of self-accomplishment and improvement in the game. Advancement up that steep steep learning curve. At least that's how it used to be.

Isn't that why we have Fortress Forever in the first place?

[Scuzzy]

Why are you guys so upset about this? If it's such a bad thing, it'll make our game more successful.

[Terminus Est]

Originally Posted by StoneFrog

Exactly. In essence, it's like what Blizzard did to the Warcraft series when they created WoW.

"Ohai here's an MMORPG that totally breaks any lore established from Warcraft I, II, or III. On the bright side, it's made by Blizzard, and it has Orcs and hawt Night Elf pr0nz, so that's good enough for you, right?"

Valve should've made it more obvious it was going to be a "spiritual sequel" to Team Fortress Classic. Hell, they should have taken the name "Gang Garrison" before that was taken. :P

However, what perturbs me the most is that Robin Walker and John Cook, the creators of QWTF and later hired by Valve to work on TFC, are completely content with the direction their game is going. Have they been brainwashed? I think they need to be invited onto the IRC channels and partake in a match of their old game again...

Maybe they don't think TFC and TF 2.8 are absolutely perfect games that deserve to be emulated 100%? Maybe they like doing new things with Team Fortress instead of making the same game three times? I've played TF 2.8, TFC, TF2, and FF and I'm glad that they're all different. Keep in mind that the way people play TFC now is not the same way Robin Walker and John Cook envisioned the original TF in 1996. Back when I played QWTF on GameSpy's old Quake server browser, nobody conc-jumped, for instance.

And for the love of God, everyone shut the hell up with the MMORPG crap! Team Fortress 2 is neither massively multiplayer nor an RPG, and it does not have the capability to be either of those things.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Terminus Est

Well of course they care about the "almighty dollar". They're a business. Businesses exist to make money.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. Maybe you missed the small, yet important word "all" in there...

Valve has proven lately that they care more about money than they do about their customers.

A commercial video game developer as high-profile as Valve would be insane to cater to a small, hardcore group of fans at the expense of the general gamer public. Some independent developers can get away with it because their sales figures are small enough that the demographic really doesn't matter, but Valve, if they made something like Fortress Forever as a flagship commercial product, would stand to lose huge amounts of money (we're talking seven figures), especially when TFC itself is still alive and well.

I don't think I'd call TFC "alive and well"... last time I checked(just now... peak time in the US), there were 208 servers, with many of them locked Clan servers. Of the pubs(167), 98 had players listed... but there is no filter for singling out servers with Bots. Last week, I saw only 4 servers with REAL players during non-peak times. Give or take about the same as FF servers.

Also, how do randomized weapons and costume customization make a game an MMORPG? It's missing pretty much every other feature of an MMORPG, like the monthly charges, the item hierarchy (many of the unlockable weapons aren't any better than the regular ones--they all have disadvantages relative to the defaults, and some, like the Kritzkrieg and Natascha, are arguably worse than the regular versions), indivdual character stats (one Medic is just the same as another Medic), NPCs, quests, and, oh yeah, TF2 is neither massively multiplayer nor an RPG.

I believe the point in question is more of taking the standard "everyone has the same equiptment" off of the table, and making it a matter of "he who has the unlockables can do things he who doesn't can't." If you take my meaning. It unlevels the playing field.

Not to mention that the item drops and stuff like that are nothing but pure speculation with zero actual evidence behind them.

But forget all that, let's make wild conjecture, scream that the sky is falling, and complain about TF2 for not being TFC and Valve for not making a game without a significant (to a large developer) market to sell to. Such small user bases are best served by mods. In fact, there is actually a mod aimed at hardcore TF/TFC fans out right now. I think it's called Fortress Forever or something.

I myself play both FF and TF2 and enjoy them for different reasons. I think both are excellent games that should be judged on their own merits and independent of each other or TFC.

But never mind all that, OH NO! MMOs THE HORROR! They might add customizable hats for players that likely won't even do anything! God save us all!

I don't think many people expected TF2 to be TFC2.... but I believe there was a level of expectation that wasn't met for previous FPS/Fortress players. FF was created because Valve appeared to be doing nothing with TF2(it was vaporware for close to a decade)... and both prior versions of TF games were "Mods" anyway.

In other words, prior customers(those who owned older Fortress games) were basicly ignored when TF2 was designed. Did they sell an assload of copies? Yes. Although, many people were disappointed with the game(myself included).... every change they have made to it so far has done nothing to warm me(and many others) up to the game. Yes, it does have a player base. Most of them are the type of gamer that tires of a game fairly quickly and moves on to something else.... which is why I believe TF2 will die within the next 5 years. TFC has remained mostly unchanged(save for some settings changes, maps, and the addition of teleporters when Steam came out...) since it was developed.

I wonder how many copies would have been sold had they not done the Orange Box packaging. I certainly wouldn't have bought it.

Anyhow... you can't shit on long time customers if you intend to keep them. I have games that I have been playing for over 30 years, and they are just as fun now as they were back when I first bought them. I seriously doubt that anyone will even remember TF2 in 30 years as anything more than a "wait.... I think I played that...."

[fishBurger]

Originally Posted by Iggy

I don't think many people expected TF2 to be TFC2.... but I believe there was a level of expectation that wasn't met for previous FPS/Fortress players.

My disappointment with TF2 was that it didn't match my expectations in the look and feel of Brotherhood of Arms.

[MonoXideAtWork]

I don't see any part of this where valve has "shit on their customers" with tf2.

When a band moves away from the garage band sound and focuses on refining their music to appeal to a wider base, are they shitting on their fans?

I don't think so, they are evolving. You know what would make me feel shit on? Releasing a game that is $50 USD retail that is an exact copy of a previous game, save for a new enginer (HL:SOURCE).

Instead, we got something fresh and new. If you don't like it, too bad, don't play it. Stick it to the company where it hurts by not buying the game.

Wait, you already bought it? It came in a deal package with a Single-player game, and, a tricking game? Shit sounds pretty sweet to me.

Did you feel like you were ripped off when you bought orange box? I thought it was a great value.

[StoneFrog]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Most of them are the type of gamer that tires of a game fairly quickly and moves on to something else.... which is why I believe TF2 will die within the next 5 years. TFC has remained mostly unchanged(save for some settings changes, maps, and the addition of teleporters when Steam came out...) since it was developed.

True. One edge QWTF/TFC have over TF2 is attributed simply to its age. It has a whole nostalgia factor that TF2 won't be able to recreate. I'm sure there may be some kids right now who play TF2 and will one day look to it as the cornerstone of their childhood, but probably not in the way that Wolfenstein 3D, DOOM, Quake, and Half-Life have touched our lives.

People will always return to TFC just to look at the old maps again, or to hear the "Excuse me! I'm in need of medical attention!", or to do some conc jumping. TFC has been dying, but it's been doing so very slowly and those who remained loyal to it still are loyal. TF2's popularity has already died down a fair bit - and I'll tell you this much. I don't see any leagues or competitions or popular servers with tight, close-knit friendly communities around for it, really. And those are the things that keep a game (especially a Team Fortress game) alive.