FF Maps and Copyrights

[Dr.Uudge]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

Alright then if you download a MP3 do you ask the artist if you can first?

This is interesting because in the world of hiphop, it's becoming more and more complex to determine what actually belongs to the artist and what belongs to the company, as well as what belongs to who in terms of the vamping and the lyrics.

The vamp by a lot of the newer artists use remixes of older vamps, such as Biggie's vamp from "Juicy" or Nas's "Fuck Jay-Z".

Since the original vamp is being remixed as a vamp with different syncopation, in addition to the addition of new lyrics from the newer artists, should the original author of the vamps still get royalty from the remixed vamps? Is it ok for the newer artists to remix older vamps, and still claim themselves as authors of the remix?

Or how about remixes of lyrics from previous raps into new vamps? So when you download an mp3, who gets the dues?

In terms of things such as map porting, there can be no absolute way of determining whether porting maps is ok or not, because there is no written standard that specifically address map porting. What's going on is, everyone is using the history of other copyrighted and non-copyrighted material to use as support for or against map porting. This is not a very good way to go about discussing because it's trying to confuse 4 very different aspects of using/manipulating "intellectual property":
1. is it moral
2. should it be moral
3. is it legal
4. shoud it be legal

And because of the lack of a written standard that defines map porting with or without the author's permission, in addition to something solid to point to, these 4 aspects are being mixed and different points are being countered at different times.

[SoBe Green]

The question is highly relevant.

Lets put things in perspective:

MP3 - Song created by ARTIST
ARTIST - Person who creates song
RECORD COMPANY - Company who produces the equipment for ARTIST to produce song that turns into a MP3.
USER - Person who turns the song into a MP3 and distributes/downloads it in a way it was not meant to be originally.

MAP - .bsp created by AUTHOR
AUTHOR - Person who creates .bsp
VALVE - Company who produces the means for the ARTIST to produce the .bsp which turns into the MAP.
USER - Person who changes the MAP and distributes it in a way it was not meant to be originally.

You can argue all day long about copyrights. The only difference here is that the song IS copyrighted and money is made from it where the map is not and money is not made from it.

We are still at:
#1. Most of you are crying because a FF map was ported over to TF2.
#2. Most of you are crying because he didn't ask for permission.

#1. Get over it.
#2. It has already been said that as long as he provides credit to the original author they are fine with it.

[bokko]

BANANA - Fruit
YELLOW - Colour of BANANA
SWEET - Taste of BANANA if colour is YELLOW
PERSON - Someone who eats said BANANA, preferably when it's ripe and has a YELLOW colour and a SWEET taste.

MAP - Not a fruit
YELLOW - Sometimes a MAP will feature this colour
SWEET - A good MAP is pretty SWEET
PERSON - Someone that plays the MAP

#1 The comparison doesn't make any fucking sense
#2 Sobe green is a moron

#3 Lock this thread?

[gizmofo]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

The question is highly relevant.

Lets put things in perspective:

MP3 - Song created by ARTIST
ARTIST - Person who creates song
RECORD COMPANY - Company who produces the equipment for ARTIST to produce song that turns into a MP3.
USER - Person who turns the song into a MP3 and distributes/downloads it in a way it was not meant to be originally.

MAP - .bsp created by AUTHOR
AUTHOR - Person who creates .bsp
VALVE - Company who produces the means for the ARTIST to produce the .bsp which turns into the MAP.
USER - Person who changes the MAP and distributes it in a way it was not meant to be originally.

You can argue all day long about copyrights. The only difference here is that the song IS copyrighted and money is made from it where the map is not and money is not made from it.

We are still at:
#1. Most of you are crying because a FF map was ported over to TF2.
#2. Most of you are crying because he didn't ask for permission.

#1. Get over it.
#2. It has already been said that as long as he provides credit to the original author they are fine with it.

People in this thread are not talking about the moral delemas that porting a FF map cause. Get that through your head and stop trying to defend him. This thread is for the sole basis of discussing the legal issues involved with intellectual property. We are relating it to the last thread simply because that thread was relevant, and is something many of us supposedly understand.

[SizeableSSonic]

I emailed Gabe Newell on the matter.

Alright, I hate to bug you again, but here's the deal:

Someone from the TeamFortress2Fort (I think that's what the community was called) ported Well from Fortress Forever into Team Fortress 2- without the author's permission.

Is this allowed?

Also, it should be noted the said community now put said converted map on their TF2 server. Also, the map only credits FF in the readme, nothing else-and very very few people ever read a map's readme.

I won't lie to you, I am on FF's side of the fence here on the matter, as I support their mod more than TF2 (as I am sure you have noticed by now, if you read my other emails.) That's why I came to you on the subject. While TF2 is your own game, yes-but you guys have always been extremly fair when it comes to the mod community, and I think you would make a fair judgment on the matter. Besides, you guys operate the Source SDK, so it probably comes down to your decision.

Thanks,
-Stefano

I'll tell you guys if I get a response.

[Scuzzy]

Could a moderator please remove the banana posts and perhaps split the music copyright information into another thread?

Thanks,
Scuzzy

[gizmofo]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Could a moderator please remove the banana posts and perhaps split the music copyright information into another thread?

Thanks,
Scuzzy

It's like that clip they had on college humor- this is a forum. We're lucky we stayed on topic for so long without interruption.

[SoBe Green]

That was the point I was discussing here. The fact that the copyright doesn't apply to the map. I gave an example where the copyright does belong to the owner and where the copyright does not. How is that hard to understand at all? bokko should really cut down on the flaming it isn't needed.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Could a moderator please remove the banana posts and perhaps split the music copyright information into another thread?

Thanks,
Scuzzy

Hate to say it, but regardless of the monetary gains/losses, it is applicable to the debate. It's a matter of IP(Intellectual Property). If person x writes y to be freely distributable, person x still retains a copyright(despite no monetary gain) to property y. Person z comes along, copies y without permission(or blatent credit), person z is in violation of an infringement. If permission is given, then the arguement is moot.

Format, is not applicable. an MP3 is the same as any other form of said recording. Either you paid for it's use, or you didn't. (There are those who argue that because the media is freely available via radio, that makes it fair game to duplicate. IMO, they are innacurate...the law agrees with me on that.) If you purchased x song recorded by y artist, then you are entitled to use said recording in any fashion you like...for your own personal use. The grey area on that, is when distributing it to others(who, as far as you know, also paid for the rights to use said song)...if they paid for it, they should be allowed to use it. If they didn't....the government will hunt them down and prosecute them.

The whole matter boils down to "what is fair usage". Fair usage on a .bsp is to play it in it's original form, or a modified version where credit is given to the original author, as well as the person who modified it in the way it was modified.

[bokko]

It's not a well thought throught comparison, it's not very relevant to the thread.

My 'flaming' you is a result of you never accepting that people have different opinions. You've been very busy putting people down for liking FF lately and it's getting old.

"You are just crying because there are people who prefer FF over TF2, I am now going to dismiss all your arguments by denouncing them as the ramblings of a Valve fanboy."
See, two can play this game!

[Edit: No, to sobe]

[Iggy]

Are you talking to me? If so......HUH!?

[gizmofo]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Are you talking to me? If so......HUH!?

bokko and sobe green..round 2.. FIGHT!

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Hate to say it, but regardless of the monetary gains/losses, it is applicable to the debate. It's a matter of IP(Intellectual Property). If person x writes y to be freely distributable, person x still retains a copyright(despite no monetary gain) to property y. Person z comes along, copies y without permission(or blatent credit), person z is in violation of an infringement. If permission is given, then the arguement is moot.

Explain to me the crime, can something that is by contract to have absolutely no value be stolen? Playing a song over the radio and distributing a BSP over the internet are to completely different items, it's comparing apples to oranges. The song has monitary value, it is sold for profit, and the individual who loses cash because someone copies and redistributes it is clearly suffering a loss of income. A bsp, by definition of valve, in this instance, is of absolutely no monitary value and must be distributed to the public without predjudice or cost. The author can suffer no loss by it's duplication, distribution, or modification. If the author can suffer no loss, no crime has been committed. Again, explain to me the crime, can something that is by contract to have absolutely no value be stolen?

Scuzzy

[RP.]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Explain to me the crime, can something that is by contract to have absolutely no value be stolen? Playing a song over the radio and distributing a BSP over the internet are to completely different items, it's comparing apples to oranges. The song has monitary value, it is sold for profit, and the individual who loses cash because someone copies and redistributes it is clearly suffering a loss of income. A bsp, by definition of valve, in this instance, is of absolutely no monitary value and must be distributed to the public without predjudice or cost. The author can suffer no loss by it's duplication, distribution, or modification. If the author can suffer no loss, no crime has been committed. Again, explain to me the crime, can something that is by contract to have absolutely no value be stolen?

Scuzzy

But it can have value, just like when CS was bought by Valve, or Gmod to be distributed over STEAM for money, the fact that something doesn't have value currently, doesn't mean it'll be the case in the future...

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by RP.

But it can have value, just like when CS was bought by Valve, or Gmod to be distributed over STEAM for money, the fact that something doesn't have value currently, doesn't mean it'll be the case in the future...

A copyright can not be made valid on the potential for future profit. Valve states they can't sell it and you distribute it to the public for free then it's economically worth nada. I can't make a drawing on paper and claim that 10 years from now it'll be worth a million dollars and sue someone for copying it based on my belief of future worth.

Scuzzy

[Sacrifist]

ff_well looks really retarded in tf2. Just like cp_well would look really retarded in FF with tf2's textures. If someone is gonna steal someone else's work, you would think they would do a half ass job of it lol. The guy that ported ff_well is saying its good advertising for FF, whatever, all the tf2 children are gonna look at the map and be like, "wherez my pixarz!!". I like both games and Im all for a proper ctf_well in tf2, but this wasnt the way to do it lol. Can a heavy in tf2 even run across ff_well before the 30 minute map time is up? As for the subject, its a wash of a subject that will never be won from either side.

[SoBe Green]

Originally Posted by bokko

It's not a well thought throught comparison, it's not very relevant to the thread.

My 'flaming' you is a result of you never accepting that people have different opinions. You've been very busy putting people down for liking FF lately and it's getting old.

"You are just crying because there are people who prefer FF over TF2, I am now going to dismiss all your arguments by denouncing them as the ramblings of a Valve fanboy."
See, two can play this game!

[Edit: No, to sobe]

Why would I "put people down" for liking a game I play almost every day? Where do you decide I'm a "Valve fanboy"? I've been waiting on this game since I first heard about it in January of 2005. I absolutely love it.

[gizmofo]

I may just be throwing things up in the air, but if the author's purpose in making the map was to be played as it were (but not sold), would modifying it not void his rights?
Now I'll probably be going further off- In writing, you are required to cite work to the original author, even if you are just taking his main idea and rewording it. Don't the same rules apply in that the porter must have given credit to "eat" and not the whole literature community per se?

[Dospac]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

But for it to truly be IP it needs to have a value. (not HAVE value, but have A value.)

No, this is where you're whole position here is incorrect Scuzzy. IP need not have a defined market value(or any explicit monetary value) to be protected.

Again and again and again and again the courts have upheld the idea that art or similar creative works(ff_well.bsp in this case)have an intrinsic value and are always protected by copyright law, provided they were created legally etc.

Your other attempts at connecting it being made and distributed for free have zero to do with somebody taking the map, repackaging it and re-distributing it. That's a no-no without the owners permission.

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by SizeableSSonic

I emailed Gabe Newell on the matter.



I'll tell you guys if I get a response.

lol...