The defensive medic: An extension to Circuitous' post - Page 2

o_m@c · 11-17-2005, 08:22 AM

Perhaps they are whining cause they've practised a certain standard tactic, and figuered that since you where the 4th defender with 2 soldiers and one engi that you'ld fill that last position as a solly. I might be wrong though, just a theory.

Anyways, the game has evolved and even though I think that alternative tactics might be useful sometimes, Def medic on CTF is not, period. It's been tried and flushed down the drain.

o_kastofsna · 12-12-2005, 01:59 AM

i've found D medic to be quite useful when the other team has an offensive HW

in general, i have a hard time saying ANY class couldn't work on offense/defense, because there are so many different situations where it can be VERY effective. a spy on D isn't USUALLY a great idea, but if the other team has spies and you have several SGs in your base, it's nice to get their disguise before they can get in position to gren the SGs. and i think we've all tried the trick as a scout where you caltrop the opening to the base/flagroom as an opposing player approaches

it all depends on the situation

o_qui · 12-12-2005, 11:14 AM

In Attack/Defence what you said can be true, but i suspect most people here were referring to CTF, where the class selections are less dynamic, because they have been tried and tested for years. Offy hw is unlikely

o_nezumi · 12-12-2005, 12:18 PM

I think a large part of the problem with TFC, in terms of competitive play, is that the maps weren't designed for it.

I think that some entirely new gameplay types should be devised that support this sort of thing better. It's like CS. None of the official hostie maps would have worked at all for league play. Because of this, the leages (I'm assuming all of them) only used DE maps, even though it technically would be possible to design a hostie map that worked.

I don't know if you could convince a league to use a new gameplay type though, for some reason. I mean, various gameplay types are only the main selling point of TFC/FF after all...

CTF could work for league play too, of course, but again the maps weren't really designed for it.

o_qui · 12-12-2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nezumi

CTF could work for league play too, of course, but again the maps weren't really designed for it.

I think it works quite well atm?

And besides when TFC was popular, assault was a very popular game type, theres no reason why this cant be the same with FF

Its just different requirements with CTF, people like fast based action, this dosnt leave room for HW's on offy. That said, it would be interesting to see some different tactics on CTF, and youre right, a lot of it could be down to map design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don

Why leagues have cut off the latter option is probably because the defensive medic is seen as too powerful an asset for a balanced game.

What utter crap. I dont know what its like elsewhere, but in european leagues, defensive medic is not banned. No one uses it though because its a waste of time, certainly not because its too powerful.

o_ekim · 12-12-2005, 01:18 PM

I'm pretty sure the people who designed TFC were familiar with the TF clanning scene and at least a couple of the maps are still played in CTF leagues today (my clan is playing well tonight and playedDefrag's update of 2fort last night..). And uh, there have been a LOT of custom maps that WERE specifically designed for clanned style play.

All that seems totally irrelevant to FF though... I'm pretty sure most of the official maps will be designed with both public and clanned play in mind.

o_fresh · 12-12-2005, 03:23 PM

well as it is, the maps were designed for TF play, and if the origional maps donw work then the games not being played the way the designers wanted it to.

its not the best for people to say "i played medic D and owned" its a matter of fact that through TFs evolution medic is a typically OFF class, if it was useful in defence then people would use it in defence. The fact is they dont.

**mervaka** · 12-12-2005, 03:39 PM

this is very true. however, this in itself creates an element of suprise if something breaks from the norm, until the enemy realise this, then change accordingly.

in the long run, what works best works best.

o_schmucky · 12-14-2005, 05:55 AM

This reminds me of a pug (pickup, as some would call it) a couple years back. I was so sick of playing def soldier at top ramp in pugs, I decided to be a bit adventurous and try to see if I really could hold it just as a medic.

I managed to do quite well, the funny thing with medic at that position was, because you are so much faster than a soldier, it was much easier to body block concers who were trying to ramp slide, and if you had awesome gren timing, a shotgun to the face and a gren took care of it. Keep in mind though you'd have to be a major gren whore.

It doesnt normally work because the defensive classes have to absorb and avoid the poossible damage and grenades from 3+ attackers. But places like ramp on sd2, it can be effective, however, then once they adapt to the fact that you cant spam rockets and know they can just get close and DM you to death, you're pretty screwed :P

The last time I tried that in a pickup game, I think the server admin kicked me because I was killing their offense

I probably would have kicked me too.

o_lord asriel · 12-14-2005, 07:24 AM

U don't have an opinion about clan games, never played one, but I think everyone has the right to try whatever. I have defended well as a medic, and as a spy. You say they are not good enough comparing to other classes, I say they are a good supplement. If there are 2 good sollys covering the 2fort flag entrances, most times the enemy o gets through there (if any at all) they are probably severely wounded. Totally opposite to what someone said, I think the way a medic can be useful in defense is his ability to fail last-moment low-hp flag escapes by shotgunning that ready-to-die attacker. Why would a 3d soldier do that better, since he would probably be avoided?

o_afx · 12-14-2005, 05:59 PM

I dont really get what youre saying, You admit that def medic doesnt work in certain situations i.e virtually any standard ctf map, And of course you are correct that defensive medic can work in some situations namely the likes of cz2 or any non standard map and any clan with half a brain already uses them in these situations, so what exactly is your point?

The fact is that whilst defensive medic can be effective even on a ctf map that medic would have to be a supplement to the existing 4 or 5 man defence and thus in a clangame that would mean taking 1 person from your offence. If you just tried to replace a standard defensive position with a straight swop for a medic than against anyone with half a clue your team would get destroyed.

Defensive med can be fun on some pubs, maybe you made the right choice.

o_afx · 12-14-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

U(I?) don't have an opinion about clan games, never played one, but I think everyone has the right to try whatever.

Posting again just to disagree, If you have any respect for your teammates then you dont have the right to try whatever you feel like. You have a responsibility to your team to do the job asked of you, as if for example you did go defensive med then theres every chance youre totally messing up a clangame for the rest of your team.

Clan and public play are very separate i dont get why people have problems with one or the other, You want organised play where youre going to have restrictions on what you can and cant do then play in a clan and when you want a bit of fun go on anyone of the dozens of pubs out there. Noones forcing you to play in clangames afterall.

o_shaggy · 12-14-2005, 06:57 PM

The medic does not have the armor, health, or weapons to hold a choke point. But their speed and 4 grenades does allow them the ability to hunt down the offense pretty effectively. So a D medic is only valuable if it's a roaming position. Unfortunately in clan matches, you have a set # of D and there is normally enough ways to get into the base or flag room that you need all the players to guard choke points, which would make the medic less useful. On pubs on the other hand, there is 0 cordination so roaming D can be about just as effective. So I could easily see a D medic being quite useful.

Now is a roaming medic a better choice then a roaming soldier, I think that depends on alot of things. I do know as the map grows in size the more favorable the medic becomes. Anyways, the medic can be a useful D class long as they don't have to hold a point and it's not a coordinated O attack.

o_otiz · 12-14-2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don

Why leagues have cut off the latter option is probably because the defensive medic is seen as too powerful an asset for a balanced game.

o_darknight · 12-14-2005, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don

Why leagues have cut off the latter option is probably because the defensive medic is seen as too powerful an asset for a balanced game.

That is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard - and that includes things that Darkness has said.

**mervaka** · 12-14-2005, 10:53 PM

still, i dont think it should be up to the league to decide how to play and how not to play a class. if a clan can agree on astrategy, albeit unorthodox, but one that can win games, then so be it. of course, any class limits should remain.

o_ekim · 12-14-2005, 11:47 PM

...

no leagues limit medics to offence.
clans use medics in offence, not defence, because that's what works.

**mervaka** · 12-15-2005, 12:19 AM

i never said anything about whether it works effectively

but youre right, it doesnt.

sorry for not knowing what leagues do and do not impose, i was going by what other people were saying

Dospac · 12-15-2005, 10:58 PM

As far as I know no organised TF league has ever said you couldn't use an O HW or D Medic. That just isn't what the leagues are there for. At most you see 4d MAX rule in STA for 8v8 maps. That's as extreme a control as any league I've ever seen, outside of international competition in the ECTFC tournament.

The mistake many make when judging rules in organised play is that all games when played competitively need rules to ensure fair competition. TF actually has very few compared to any game played at a professional level, for instance.

Jimyd · 08-26-2007, 10:33 PM

Here's a strat the pisses plenty of people off.

monkey_l

HW FD/ Medic FD/ T Solly/ Either amazing demo or another soldier.

Hw stand on water side lip of fd, and med stand on other lip and chases anyone that goes for grenade bag or ramp. T solly sticks more towards water entrance if any do happen to get by hw, and fr person should be able to kill anything that is 30 hp or less.

Oh and if you are palying 9v9, put an engy on there and you have a full hw on fd every run the enemy offense makes.

Please note this will get you banned pretty quickly from an admin because there will be massive whining.

----

D spy is just for spypill spam which is a cheap tactic. Scout d i guess might be good if they run 3 spies on a map or something. You'll never see that happen though.

11-17-2005, 08:22 AM	#21
o_m@c Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Uppsala, Sweden Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Perhaps they are whining cause they've practised a certain standard tactic, and figuered that since you where the 4th defender with 2 soldiers and one engi that you'ld fill that last position as a solly. I might be wrong though, just a theory. Anyways, the game has evolved and even though I think that alternative tactics might be useful sometimes, Def medic on CTF is not, period. It's been tried and flushed down the drain.

12-12-2005, 01:59 AM	#22
o_kastofsna Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i've found D medic to be quite useful when the other team has an offensive HW in general, i have a hard time saying ANY class couldn't work on offense/defense, because there are so many different situations where it can be VERY effective. a spy on D isn't USUALLY a great idea, but if the other team has spies and you have several SGs in your base, it's nice to get their disguise before they can get in position to gren the SGs. and i think we've all tried the trick as a scout where you caltrop the opening to the base/flagroom as an opposing player approaches it all depends on the situation

12-12-2005, 11:14 AM	#23
o_qui Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bournemouth, England Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	In Attack/Defence what you said can be true, but i suspect most people here were referring to CTF, where the class selections are less dynamic, because they have been tried and tested for years. Offy hw is unlikely

12-12-2005, 12:18 PM	#24
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I think a large part of the problem with TFC, in terms of competitive play, is that the maps weren't designed for it. I think that some entirely new gameplay types should be devised that support this sort of thing better. It's like CS. None of the official hostie maps would have worked at all for league play. Because of this, the leages (I'm assuming all of them) only used DE maps, even though it technically would be possible to design a hostie map that worked. I don't know if you could convince a league to use a new gameplay type though, for some reason. I mean, various gameplay types are only the main selling point of TFC/FF after all... CTF could work for league play too, of course, but again the maps weren't really designed for it.

12-12-2005, 01:18 PM	#26
o_ekim Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bristol UK Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	I'm pretty sure the people who designed TFC were familiar with the TF clanning scene and at least a couple of the maps are still played in CTF leagues today (my clan is playing well tonight and playedDefrag's update of 2fort last night..). And uh, there have been a LOT of custom maps that WERE specifically designed for clanned style play. All that seems totally irrelevant to FF though... I'm pretty sure most of the official maps will be designed with both public and clanned play in mind.

12-12-2005, 03:23 PM	#27
o_fresh Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brum. Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	well as it is, the maps were designed for TF play, and if the origional maps donw work then the games not being played the way the designers wanted it to. its not the best for people to say "i played medic D and owned" its a matter of fact that through TFs evolution medic is a typically OFF class, if it was useful in defence then people would use it in defence. The fact is they dont.

12-12-2005, 03:39 PM	#28
mervaka A Very Sound Guy! Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	this is very true. however, this in itself creates an element of suprise if something breaks from the norm, until the enemy realise this, then change accordingly. in the long run, what works best works best.

12-14-2005, 05:55 AM	#29
o_schmucky Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	This reminds me of a pug (pickup, as some would call it) a couple years back. I was so sick of playing def soldier at top ramp in pugs, I decided to be a bit adventurous and try to see if I really could hold it just as a medic. I managed to do quite well, the funny thing with medic at that position was, because you are so much faster than a soldier, it was much easier to body block concers who were trying to ramp slide, and if you had awesome gren timing, a shotgun to the face and a gren took care of it. Keep in mind though you'd have to be a major gren whore. It doesnt normally work because the defensive classes have to absorb and avoid the poossible damage and grenades from 3+ attackers. But places like ramp on sd2, it can be effective, however, then once they adapt to the fact that you cant spam rockets and know they can just get close and DM you to death, you're pretty screwed :P The last time I tried that in a pickup game, I think the server admin kicked me because I was killing their offense I probably would have kicked me too.

12-14-2005, 07:24 AM	#30
o_lord asriel Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Between absolute's vertical lines Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	U don't have an opinion about clan games, never played one, but I think everyone has the right to try whatever. I have defended well as a medic, and as a spy. You say they are not good enough comparing to other classes, I say they are a good supplement. If there are 2 good sollys covering the 2fort flag entrances, most times the enemy o gets through there (if any at all) they are probably severely wounded. Totally opposite to what someone said, I think the way a medic can be useful in defense is his ability to fail last-moment low-hp flag escapes by shotgunning that ready-to-die attacker. Why would a 3d soldier do that better, since he would probably be avoided?

12-14-2005, 05:59 PM	#31
o_afx Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Walsall,UK Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I dont really get what youre saying, You admit that def medic doesnt work in certain situations i.e virtually any standard ctf map, And of course you are correct that defensive medic can work in some situations namely the likes of cz2 or any non standard map and any clan with half a brain already uses them in these situations, so what exactly is your point? The fact is that whilst defensive medic can be effective even on a ctf map that medic would have to be a supplement to the existing 4 or 5 man defence and thus in a clangame that would mean taking 1 person from your offence. If you just tried to replace a standard defensive position with a straight swop for a medic than against anyone with half a clue your team would get destroyed. Defensive med can be fun on some pubs, maybe you made the right choice.

12-14-2005, 06:57 PM	#33
o_shaggy Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The medic does not have the armor, health, or weapons to hold a choke point. But their speed and 4 grenades does allow them the ability to hunt down the offense pretty effectively. So a D medic is only valuable if it's a roaming position. Unfortunately in clan matches, you have a set # of D and there is normally enough ways to get into the base or flag room that you need all the players to guard choke points, which would make the medic less useful. On pubs on the other hand, there is 0 cordination so roaming D can be about just as effective. So I could easily see a D medic being quite useful. Now is a roaming medic a better choice then a roaming soldier, I think that depends on alot of things. I do know as the map grows in size the more favorable the medic becomes. Anyways, the medic can be a useful D class long as they don't have to hold a point and it's not a coordinated O attack.

12-14-2005, 10:53 PM	#36
mervaka A Very Sound Guy! Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	still, i dont think it should be up to the league to decide how to play and how not to play a class. if a clan can agree on astrategy, albeit unorthodox, but one that can win games, then so be it. of course, any class limits should remain.

12-14-2005, 11:47 PM	#37
o_ekim Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bristol UK Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	... no leagues limit medics to offence. clans use medics in offence, not defence, because that's what works.

12-15-2005, 12:19 AM	#38
mervaka A Very Sound Guy! Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	i never said anything about whether it works effectively but youre right, it doesnt. sorry for not knowing what leagues do and do not impose, i was going by what other people were saying

12-15-2005, 10:58 PM	#39
Dospac Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	As far as I know no organised TF league has ever said you couldn't use an O HW or D Medic. That just isn't what the leagues are there for. At most you see 4d MAX rule in STA for 8v8 maps. That's as extreme a control as any league I've ever seen, outside of international competition in the ECTFC tournament. The mistake many make when judging rules in organised play is that all games when played competitively need rules to ensure fair competition. TF actually has very few compared to any game played at a professional level, for instance.

08-26-2007, 10:33 PM	#40
Jimyd []< ,,\/_ ^_~ _\/,, >[] Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Here's a strat the pisses plenty of people off. monkey_l HW FD/ Medic FD/ T Solly/ Either amazing demo or another soldier. Hw stand on water side lip of fd, and med stand on other lip and chases anyone that goes for grenade bag or ramp. T solly sticks more towards water entrance if any do happen to get by hw, and fr person should be able to kill anything that is 30 hp or less. Oh and if you are palying 9v9, put an engy on there and you have a full hw on fd every run the enemy offense makes. Please note this will get you banned pretty quickly from an admin because there will be massive whining. ---- D spy is just for spypill spam which is a cheap tactic. Scout d i guess might be good if they run 3 spies on a map or something. You'll never see that happen though.

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