Poll: snipers on aardvark

[Player]

Originally Posted by Credge

In fact, hardly anyone actually jumps in pubs.

Rofl, what a daft comment...many players on a public server often have intimate moments with their spacebar.

Originally Posted by Credge

If he's actually BHopping then he isn't hitting you.

That is absolutely ridiculous...it is not hard to shoot and aim whilst bhopping (bhopping doesn't mean you have to flail your mouse about trying to look pro; only silly people do that)

Originally Posted by Credge

If he's actually BHopping then he isn't hitting you.

LOL

Yes.

Easiest class in the world to backstab.

[own3r]

In about 2 seconds they respawn and then start killing you again, its all just a bit irritating playing this map with that endless loop.

Originally Posted by own3r

In about 2 seconds they respawn and then start killing you again, its all just a bit irritating playing this map with that endless loop.

Backstab some more. Rinse & Repeat until they change class and/or shift their focus from sniping to counter-spying (or whatever else they feel like).

[Dospac]

Option 3: Doesn't matter either way!

the main problem with aardvark at the moment is new players definitely dont stand a chance at getting across the yard, so they just stay in the base and defend. The most i've ever had attacking on my team in a server full of maybe 18 people was 2-3, but usually I expect to be the only one. There is no way I can use any other class that can't jump to the speed ramp from the conc platform if there is a good sniper on the other team, so I end up playing scout/medic/demoman all the time. It is absolutely impossible to walk or bhop across the yard against good snipers. I consider myself pretty good at dodging their fire to. I dont personally mind snipers because I always have to deal with them on every map I play on, and getting sniped just means i respawn and i'm there 5 seconds later with maybe a little more air movement to dodge the sniper, but the newer players just seem to give up and stay in their own base, making it insanely hard to be on offense. The challenge can be fun, but is obviously tiresome to most players, and it's not fun all the time to be up against such odds.

[Scuzzy]

Let the servers manage the classes as they see fit. They can set them by map...

[greenday5494]

i would like it, but make either the sniper or the map more balanced.

[caesium]

We discussed this a little recently in another thread, so check that out if you want to know my thoughts.

The solution I suggest: as I said before, if admins want to limit snipers in order to encourage the style of play they want on their public servers then that's up to them. I agree that on aardvark public servers, especially ones with newish players who haven't learnt to conc well yet or who aren't experienced with general TF strategies, limiting snipers (to say 1 per team) should help achieve the type of play I'd assume that most admins would want on their public servers, and hopefully make it more fun for everyone. If admins want to do this for just aardvark then they can easily edit the server's lua file themselves (might be doable via server cfgs too, I'm not sure), but I'm certainly not prepared to jeopardise clanplay by making public server aimed class limits the norm.

[DrEvil]

Imo need more midfield cover. Tall stone pillars that give you a cover chance. Snipers have it too easy.

[-Xth-AngelDust]

greenday5494 please try to remember that most if not all Fortress games have been developed with a single goal in mind ... to offer a balanced class based game in a competitive arena. This unfortunately doesn't really apply to the public server experience due to the very nature of public server gaming. I'd suggest people who have complaints on any specific class base to make a consideration based on clan gameplay for this is what is usually what development is based upon to a large degree.

I'm not discrediting the problems that have been identified when playing in a public gaming format but the general basis of balance is judged on that clan based competitive instance.

As caesium has suggested some clans / organisations could limit class numbers to balance the public experience. What you have to be careful of aswell is pushing people away from your server by restricting the classes they wish to play. Afterall the public server is where we all learn how to improve our skill in our preferred class.

[-Xth-AngelDust]

Originally Posted by DrEvil

Imo need more midfield cover. Tall stone pillars that give you a cover chance. Snipers have it too easy.

I would tend to agree with you there. There's no harm in making a class job harder via map functionality.

[Dr.Uudge]

May be it's not the map's fault. I tend to think the charge --> 1 shot kill makes it so that any open area map is sniping heaven.

You know in those golf games, where a meter goes up and down and an arrow points to the hit strength like this:

max..------
........-----
.........---- <<<
..........---
...........--
min........-

and the arrow goes up and down so that you have to time it right to get the max amount of power?

Well, how about if the snipe charge was changed as such? Have the bar go up and down at a relatively moderate rate, like a cycle of 1.5~2.5 seconds, and in order to do the max dmg, it has to be timed as such?

On pubs, at first, people play various classes. Then as snipers start dominating, more and more people start to pick sniper class, instead of going after the flag. The map turns into sniperwars, and then as people leave, the map dies out =(

The offensive scout and the sniper might have the same skills, but the scout necesarrily have to be better than the sniper in order to get past the mid section and the soldiers and the hwguys, and sgs, then go back out through the gauntlet again. And then avoid the snipers as to not lose the flag in the middle and have it go back to flag spawn.

At least, with the dynamic sniper dmg bar, it would require timing skills on the sniper part to maximize the dmg, given that the cycle is very moderate, similar to hwguy having to get used to the overheating issue.

Or should this have been put on the IaS section? Or perhaps this is too radical a change from what we're used to?

[greenday5494]

Originally Posted by -Xth-AngelDust

greenday5494 please try to remember that most if not all Fortress games have been developed with a single goal in mind ... to offer a balanced class based game in a competitive arena. This unfortunately doesn't really apply to the public server experience due to the very nature of public server gaming. I'd suggest people who have complaints on any specific class base to make a consideration based on clan gameplay for this is what is usually what development is based upon to a large degree.

I'm not discrediting the problems that have been identified when playing in a public gaming format but the general basis of balance is judged on that clan based competitive instance.

As caesium has suggested some clans / organisations could limit class numbers to balance the public experience. What you have to be careful of aswell is pushing people away from your server by restricting the classes they wish to play. Afterall the public server is where we all learn how to improve our skill in our preferred class.

no. i am NEVER going to join a clan for two reasons:
1. it pretty much means you have no life
2. they have stupid rules like "no fighting in yard" or w/e shit. i like to have FUN, not to be contrainsted by some retarded rules.

[Meathook]

Originally Posted by Dr.Uudge

You know in those golf games, where a meter goes up and down and an arrow points to the hit strength like this:

max..------
........-----
.........---- <<<
..........---
...........--
min........-

and the arrow goes up and down so that you have to time it right to get the max amount of power?

I think I like it, but it's not right for FF... idk



Snipers can power shoot, head shot, blast someone to hell, cripple their legs, or tag em... I'd be all for removing the power shot.

what if..

Head shots: instakill on all

scouts, medics, spies, and snipers (and civi) take two to the chest

all others 3


other than that, they'd be tagged and/or crippled.. do snipes need more?



btw, snipe is my second favorite class.



and yes, aardvark is silly with the snipes, like 4 on each team... it's nuts... but I've started not liking Aardvark...(for mostly non-league pubs, but the conc in conc out set up is weak too)

[Player]

Originally Posted by caesium

but I'm certainly not prepared to jeopardise clanplay by making public server aimed class limits the norm.

I don't see how adding midfield cover jeopordises clan-style gameplay

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Player

Rofl, what a daft comment...many players on a public server often have intimate moments with their spacebar.

That is absolutely ridiculous...it is not hard to shoot and aim whilst bhopping (bhopping doesn't mean you have to flail your mouse about trying to look pro; only silly people do that)

LOL

I enjoy how you didn't refute my arguments. It isn't hard to shoot and aim while BHopping, you are right. However:

1. The HW's bullets go where his mouse is. When BHopping you use your mouse to propel you. If you don't see the problem with this I feel sorry for you.

2. If you STILL die by the HW BHopping, he would have killed you if he didn't BHop. The entire argument is moot.

[own3r]

Originally Posted by Player

I don't see how adding midfield cover jeopordises clan-style gameplay

Its called he wants all heavy classes to be destroyed by snipers so only the "clan style" offence gets through to the enemy base. This is extremely stupid for two reasons:

1.) There is no clan style limits or positioning of sgs or hws in the enemy base and people can simply lock down the ramp and prevent the offence getting any further.

2.) Without heavier classes such as soldiers taking down the multitude of sentry guns and hws it impossible to get through and defence has it very easy resulting in a stalemate. Thus making this map no fun at all to play.

[mervaka]

imo the only thing that really needs cover is the line of sight between the top spawn exits.

[Player]

Aardvark was designed for clan-play I assume, so begging for changes to improve public play is hopeless and is an issue server admins can address if they feel it is necessary; however, adding midfield cover certianly would not damage clan-style gameplay...most of it happens within the bases, with the occassional venture into midmap due to a lost flag, so midfield cover in that sense would add depth to midmap play whenever there is a lost flag.


Credge, I stand solid next to my "players are always jumping in public servers." statement, because it is a fact--your statement is not.

The bhopping situation is different, however; I agree with you that the issue is "moot" as an almost negligible advantage is received. It is entirely dependant on the situation as to how much benefit a hw receives whilst bhopping (pedantry: constant jumping, not jumping and strafing) and shooting. It is definitelty possible to bhop and shoot whilst aiming and hitting one's target, and even though it is dependant on the situation, not much benefit is earned even at the most beneficial of times: walking whilst shooting = speed of 90; with a strafe jump, continuous jumping and no strafing = constant speed of 100 (after incremental speed decrease...so from 130 down to 100); with a strafe jump, continuous jumping and strafing = maintainable 140-150** speed; default hw walking speed is 230--whilst bhopping, 300* on contact with floor and about 350 can be achieved in the air.

*only minor mouse movements required--very minor. Essentially, the spray will cover the target enough to allow for these minor mouse movements
*drops incrementally when strafing is ceased; speed is maintained for long enough for the speed advantage to allow for effective aiming; can be picked up immediately on return of strafe

Basically, it IS possible to bhop whilst aiming, shooting and killing a target (I did it on TFC, Quake & mods and others, and I can do it in FF), but to be honest, it really does not give the player an advantage...

Fix the weapon, fix the hw.

Disabling jump whilst firing would be good, as would restricting movement furthermore :P