hey all, ive got a mapping question - Page 2

o_wunder · 01-01-2006, 06:22 AM

yeah that makes sense then. yeah, i remember from when i dabbled in map designs years ago that you have to scale everything up, i think it has to do with the players lack of periphial (sp?) vision in a computer game, you have to be able to see more stuff to compensate. ...wait no i think thats opposite... oh well, thanks for reminding me

thanks again guys, i think i got the hang of building, just gotta practice using textures and learn how to do some lighting.

o_nezumi · 01-01-2006, 07:22 AM

Hi, welcome to the forums and to the wide world of mapping.

Speaking of scale, here's some specifics in case you haven't bumped into them in any tutorial. A player is 72 units tall, but there's some discrepency in that sometimes. A player is 32 units wide, step height is 18 (in hl1 it was. I'm assuming it's the same in source), you can jump on a box up to but not including 64 units tall, unless you duck right before you jump which allows you to get on it, for some reason. As you'll see from most of the wall textures in the game, a ceiling should be 128 units high. According to valve, stairs should be 8 units tall and 12 units deep, because that's what the stair textures line up to (and it looks pretty correct to me). A player (in hl1, again. I haven't tested it in hl2) runs very close to 300 units per second. With the player height and width, a player cannot get through a space that many units wide. For example, a gap has to be more than 32 units wide to allow a player through.

And to make your maps look really professional, be sure to use cubemaps, soundscapes, bsp-zip, and 3d skyboxes. They're pretty easy to use once you figure out how to use them, and are like free professionalism.

Also look at this: http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Optimization
This part isn't such a big deal untill you're making a fullsize map (and not just making test maps or anything) but it becomes pretty important later because it's really easy to make maps that'll never run fast enough. (Like, really really easy. 80% of the crap I try to make never gets good enough fps.)

Defrag · 01-01-2006, 07:50 AM

Yeah, you can check out the dev textures to see the standard scale of things in HL2. Staircases, walls, crates and so on all have suggested sizes, partly because a lot of the assets were modeled later on. Standardising sizes ensured that most of the props (models) created for the game could be re-used multiple times. You don't have to stick to their limits or pay much attention to them, but it's always worth a look, especially when you're finding your feet.

Consistency is key for building some types of map, so it is useful for this, too.

o_fisheye · 01-01-2006, 02:22 PM

using info_player_start entities, which will show up in hammer as gordon models, is a perfect way of seeing the scale of your map.

o_wunder · 01-02-2006, 01:00 AM

i think im going to start out making a map for counterstrike, if i need to use my own textures for things, is that ok or do i need to stick with the prefab textures?

oh, is there any way to import models as brushes into hammer?

o_cruor · 01-02-2006, 05:26 AM

There is actually a script for 3D Studio Max called "Game Level Builder" which can covert what you've made in 3D studio max into convex BSP structure.

I don't know how it works as I've yet to try it but it looks promosing to us 3dsmax fellows

There is a newer version 3.0 which would set you back $40, and then there is a earlier version 2.22 which is free, so I'd recommend perhaps trying that first and then consider buying GLB3.0.

This is the creators site: http://www.maple3d.com/MainFrameGLB3Page.htm

Enjoy!

o_stino · 01-02-2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wunder

shift-v is just what i needed! i think im getting the hang of this.

so units of 8 or 16, how tall is the average player?

if any of you guys have aim feel free to jump on and say hi. my sn is 'long gone london'

if you put in the info_player_start entity, you can see the player in hammer, and if you have the beta sdk you can see it in 2d too :d

o_vorm · 01-09-2006, 03:47 PM

I'll resurrect this thread as it seems relevant.

I've just started mapping also and the first page of this thread was pretty usefull.

Can anyone tell me what the distance in units an average conc jump is. I know this is not an exact distance but if anyone uses a measurement when developing their maps, I'd like to know what you use.

Cheers.

V.

o_wunder · 01-09-2006, 05:20 PM

yeah, i have another question too. how do you make sides of a brush a different texture? like the inside of this doorway in this pic of ampx's amped map is striped but the walls are concrete.

how do you do that?

also, i want to remake the map "murderball", after i finish making the map itself, how would i make the scoring? i suppose this applies to every type of map, how do i make the map actually work? meaning the scoring and stuff.

anyway, thanks in advance

o_own3r · 01-09-2006, 07:06 PM

This ought to do the trick http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w...ce_Edit_Dialog

F1 in hammer should bring up the help website

I hope this resolves your problem.

o_nezumi · 01-10-2006, 05:19 PM

From what I've been hearing from the devs, the Team Fortress specific entity-related things (that is, the stuff you use for scoring) will work a bit differently in FF than in TFC.

In TFC you had the item_tfgoal, which was basically the flag. It was an item that a player could pick up, and you could set it to show up as a flag model or a keycark (like in rock2). You could also have it not show up on the player at all, which was done in hunted. The item_tfgoal could be configured to trigger something when you dropped it, like a set of entities responsible for giving points and respawning everyone, which is what happened when the hunted died. In a standard CTF map, a trigger is set up on the capture point. When a player holding a specific item_tfgoal (the flag) touches the trigger it resets the flag and awards points. The other main TFC specific entity was the info_tfgoal, which was basically just a bunch of logic you could trigger in various different ways. This came in brush and point-class flavors. The brush info_tfgoal (called an i_t_g) was generally the trigger used at cap points. The point-class info_tfgoal could be used to cause things to happen under certain conditions, like if a specific goal is dropped, or returned to it's spawn position, or to remove, restore, trigger etc. various goals or groups of goals.

It's a bit complicated, mostly because the logic system wasn't very consistent. I'd imagine that the entity I/O available with source will streamline things quite a bit. The item_tfgoal might have an 'onDropped' output, for example. This is speculation, but hey.

I'd mostly reccomend looking up some tutorials and poking around with it for a while to get an idea of what you can do.

o_cruor · 01-10-2006, 06:45 PM

Anyone managed to try out the Game Level Builder? It seems very fluid for making indoor areas and the general layout of the map, which saves time to work on the details yourself..

01-01-2006, 07:50 AM	#23
Defrag Retired FF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Yeah, you can check out the dev textures to see the standard scale of things in HL2. Staircases, walls, crates and so on all have suggested sizes, partly because a lot of the assets were modeled later on. Standardising sizes ensured that most of the props (models) created for the game could be re-used multiple times. You don't have to stick to their limits or pay much attention to them, but it's always worth a look, especially when you're finding your feet. Consistency is key for building some types of map, so it is useful for this, too. __________________ Fortress Forever. Level Designer, Gameplay Dude and whatnot.

01-01-2006, 06:22 AM	#21
o_wunder Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	yeah that makes sense then. yeah, i remember from when i dabbled in map designs years ago that you have to scale everything up, i think it has to do with the players lack of periphial (sp?) vision in a computer game, you have to be able to see more stuff to compensate. ...wait no i think thats opposite... oh well, thanks for reminding me thanks again guys, i think i got the hang of building, just gotta practice using textures and learn how to do some lighting.

01-01-2006, 07:22 AM	#22
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Hi, welcome to the forums and to the wide world of mapping. Speaking of scale, here's some specifics in case you haven't bumped into them in any tutorial. A player is 72 units tall, but there's some discrepency in that sometimes. A player is 32 units wide, step height is 18 (in hl1 it was. I'm assuming it's the same in source), you can jump on a box up to but not including 64 units tall, unless you duck right before you jump which allows you to get on it, for some reason. As you'll see from most of the wall textures in the game, a ceiling should be 128 units high. According to valve, stairs should be 8 units tall and 12 units deep, because that's what the stair textures line up to (and it looks pretty correct to me). A player (in hl1, again. I haven't tested it in hl2) runs very close to 300 units per second. With the player height and width, a player cannot get through a space that many units wide. For example, a gap has to be more than 32 units wide to allow a player through. And to make your maps look really professional, be sure to use cubemaps, soundscapes, bsp-zip, and 3d skyboxes. They're pretty easy to use once you figure out how to use them, and are like free professionalism. Also look at this: http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Optimization This part isn't such a big deal untill you're making a fullsize map (and not just making test maps or anything) but it becomes pretty important later because it's really easy to make maps that'll never run fast enough. (Like, really really easy. 80% of the crap I try to make never gets good enough fps.)

01-01-2006, 02:22 PM	#24
o_fisheye Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	using info_player_start entities, which will show up in hammer as gordon models, is a perfect way of seeing the scale of your map.

01-02-2006, 01:00 AM	#25
o_wunder Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i think im going to start out making a map for counterstrike, if i need to use my own textures for things, is that ok or do i need to stick with the prefab textures? oh, is there any way to import models as brushes into hammer?

01-02-2006, 05:26 AM	#26
o_cruor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	There is actually a script for 3D Studio Max called "Game Level Builder" which can covert what you've made in 3D studio max into convex BSP structure. I don't know how it works as I've yet to try it but it looks promosing to us 3dsmax fellows There is a newer version 3.0 which would set you back $40, and then there is a earlier version 2.22 which is free, so I'd recommend perhaps trying that first and then consider buying GLB3.0. This is the creators site: http://www.maple3d.com/MainFrameGLB3Page.htm Enjoy!

01-09-2006, 03:47 PM	#28
o_vorm Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: E. Yorks - UK Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I'll resurrect this thread as it seems relevant. I've just started mapping also and the first page of this thread was pretty usefull. Can anyone tell me what the distance in units an average conc jump is. I know this is not an exact distance but if anyone uses a measurement when developing their maps, I'd like to know what you use. Cheers. V.

01-09-2006, 05:20 PM	#29
o_wunder Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	yeah, i have another question too. how do you make sides of a brush a different texture? like the inside of this doorway in this pic of ampx's amped map is striped but the walls are concrete. how do you do that? also, i want to remake the map "murderball", after i finish making the map itself, how would i make the scoring? i suppose this applies to every type of map, how do i make the map actually work? meaning the scoring and stuff. anyway, thanks in advance

01-09-2006, 07:06 PM	#30
o_own3r Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	This ought to do the trick http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w...ce_Edit_Dialog F1 in hammer should bring up the help website I hope this resolves your problem.

01-10-2006, 05:19 PM	#31
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	From what I've been hearing from the devs, the Team Fortress specific entity-related things (that is, the stuff you use for scoring) will work a bit differently in FF than in TFC. In TFC you had the item_tfgoal, which was basically the flag. It was an item that a player could pick up, and you could set it to show up as a flag model or a keycark (like in rock2). You could also have it not show up on the player at all, which was done in hunted. The item_tfgoal could be configured to trigger something when you dropped it, like a set of entities responsible for giving points and respawning everyone, which is what happened when the hunted died. In a standard CTF map, a trigger is set up on the capture point. When a player holding a specific item_tfgoal (the flag) touches the trigger it resets the flag and awards points. The other main TFC specific entity was the info_tfgoal, which was basically just a bunch of logic you could trigger in various different ways. This came in brush and point-class flavors. The brush info_tfgoal (called an i_t_g) was generally the trigger used at cap points. The point-class info_tfgoal could be used to cause things to happen under certain conditions, like if a specific goal is dropped, or returned to it's spawn position, or to remove, restore, trigger etc. various goals or groups of goals. It's a bit complicated, mostly because the logic system wasn't very consistent. I'd imagine that the entity I/O available with source will streamline things quite a bit. The item_tfgoal might have an 'onDropped' output, for example. This is speculation, but hey. I'd mostly reccomend looking up some tutorials and poking around with it for a while to get an idea of what you can do.

01-10-2006, 06:45 PM	#32
o_cruor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Anyone managed to try out the Game Level Builder? It seems very fluid for making indoor areas and the general layout of the map, which saves time to work on the details yourself..

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