09-01-2007, 09:26 PM | #21 |
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I just figure that marriage should be a social contract between two consenting adults on the promise of exclusivity from any other marriage contracts.
Male or female, it does not matter. This leaves out plural marriage, because it is between TWO consenting adults, not three, four, or five. This leaves out children, because they do not have legal standing to sign a contract involving adults. This also leaves out animals, because even if they somehow could sign a contract (those crazy monkies, they think they're people), they do not have legal standing equal to humans in our justice system. As for plural marriages, legally, I think that it would be very difficult to iron out how that would work. What if one guy divorces all three of his wives? How are those ladies going to split a house three ways? (What if the guy gets the house? Yeah, not in America.) So yeah, legally, it would be hard to work out. However, I do not think it is the government's business to forbid private plural marriages, especially if they are religious in nature.
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09-02-2007, 12:30 AM | #22 | ||
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09-02-2007, 01:00 AM | #23 |
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Etzell, I don't see how you can separate the two. Originally marriage was all about the religious aspect. Regardless of the religion it's a sacrament of each of those various religions that consecrate it. Government gets into it from the perspective of inheritance and other various issues. I suspect you'll find that the concept of the "civil ceremony" followed later. I don't see how you can tell Gov't or Religion to stay out. This is one of those issues that is pretty well entwined.
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09-02-2007, 01:11 AM | #24 |
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Christmas was also once a strictly religious holiday. Times change.
If you stick just to the religious aspects involved with religion, why isn't there an outcry about Atheists getting married, or inter-religious marriages? The fact is, things have changed and it's time people roll with the changes. Besides, there are people adamantly against civil unions for homosexuals. So it can't just be about the word marriage. |
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09-02-2007, 01:19 AM | #25 | |
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edit: BTW, Christmas is a bad example IMO because the idiot secularists by and large won't even say the word. It's Winter Holiday and Winter Break...just call a local school...they'll tell you.
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09-02-2007, 01:30 AM | #26 |
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
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You know what though, this whole discussion really does not matter.
A significant part of the people in our generation don't really give a fuck what anyone does to themselves. Drug use is up, people are more open about homosexuality, etc. The time will come when homosexuals can marry and we can legally smoke a blunt while walking down the street. Those are the key words, "the time". Eventually, it will just happen. America was founded by a bunch of prudes and I am glad that our nation's youth are working to overturn that idiocy. It's sad to see that you have more civil liberties in many ways in Europe than you do in America.
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09-02-2007, 01:51 AM | #27 | ||
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If two women love two men and all four of them want to live as one married family should they be afforded the same rights and benefits as a heterosexual or a gay couple? Should those adults be allowed to make those bonding choices for themselves, or should the state say who they can and can not marry? Quote:
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09-02-2007, 02:57 AM | #28 | |
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09-02-2007, 03:14 AM | #29 | |
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The purpose of marrige, taking those other factors out, is to reward (via tax and other breaks) and encourage individuals to becomming stable, productive members of society. Married folk are generally happier, more responsible and productive members of society. This is not some sweeping generalization - there is plenty of emperical data on this; I ask you not to play the research link game but if you must press me I will follow up. With that point in mind, even with the high divorce rate among man-woman unions, the gay population, especially with man-man relationships, tend to have more partners, tend to be more provacative "easy-going" with their committments, and the one-on-one foundation necessary for a successful long lasting partnership seems to be rocked easier. My stance is obtained from emperical data and also opinions from my world and people I talk to. Some may be surprised that I think this way as I am def a "liberal", "green" and all that crap...but I'm also not indoctrinated to death. DC here has a very open and proud gay population - two of my best friends are 2 men who have been exclusive for 7 years and they would never go outside of each other...ever...but even they admit, as do many of my other gay friends that the "guy" scene is nuts; many guy-guy in relationships, still being men, horny, and filled with testestorone, have a don't ask don't tell policy...there is a lot of hooking up on the side even when they are in a relationship. For many, not all, it's a part of the culture, and it eventualy leads to potentially a situation where gay unions may end up crumbling. Jealousy destroys all, there is nothing more apt to ruining a relationship. Once innoscense and trust is gone from any relationship, might as well just end it. It's over. You can try to soldier on, but resentment will always be there and slowly eat away at the fabric of what made 2 ppl to be together in the first place. So not sure if I expressed myself clearly or not. But I go back to what I first said - should be legal as it's not a choice, but if it was then I think it shouldn't be...that's my stance as of sept 1 2007. I'm not immovable on it, I just have formed my opinions by talking and having friends with alot of gay people and I think I have some insight to the culture. Leaving this post, it's amazing the amount of times I have heard from my gay bretheren that they don't think they could ever be committed to one person and not have sex outside of that. Men are just too fricking horny. |
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09-02-2007, 03:43 AM | #30 |
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I do find that surprising based on my past understanding of your positions. Thanks PPC for replying.
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09-02-2007, 03:53 AM | #31 | |
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Scuzzy * - Disclaimer: Scuzzy accepts no responsibility for other forum members issues with their Gods or lack of Gods. The use of God in this context refers to the God the Father, The Holy Spirit, and Jesus as the Holy Christian Trinity. The reference to this God is presented without warranty, express or implied. Descriptions and use of the word God in this message are based soley on a matter of faith and this post does not represent to prove or disprove the existence of any God. This post is not meant to express the opinions of God, but rather just Scuzzy.
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09-02-2007, 04:00 AM | #32 |
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you totally and unequivocally oversimplified my post, misunderstood, and generally missed my point entirely. maybe it's the posters fault, but lose the elitism - I'm 32, have been in my fair share of wonderful, terrible, heartbreaking, and blissful relationships. I don't need a lecture on matters of the heart from you. I'm plenty experienced enough.
I wasn't talking about "looking". I was talking about fucking. And while yes it is possible, it's never the same. Been there. Last edited by puppychow; 09-02-2007 at 04:06 AM. |
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09-02-2007, 04:01 AM | #33 |
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The Disclaimer is a nice touch Scuzzy.
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09-02-2007, 04:14 AM | #34 |
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*Grabs some popcorn.*
This gonna be better than a soap, I'm sure of it....
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09-02-2007, 04:48 AM | #35 |
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Ya damn those idiots secularists Innoc, damn them. You know what else? Damn those Republicans, conservatives, pro-gun law people, and anti-gay marriage assholes too. Christmas is called winter break because other holidays aside from Christmas occur around then, not some assumed vendetta against Christianity. The reason the church needs to be separate is because there is no longer one religion in North America, and giving one more power and influence than the others is a form of bias and discrimination. They don't want to Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukkah/Holiday #3/etc.... because that is a pain in the ass so they say season's greetings, happy holidays, and in your example, they call it Winter Break to acknowledge everyone.
And Scuzzy, I think the problem with what your saying is that Gay relationships completely benign compared to the multiple marriages or child-adult marriages. If Homosexuals getting married was as sick and twisted(and most importantly, harmful to someone) as Pedophiles marrying children then we would not be vehemently defending it, Etzell and I and all the other people on this board who share our views would be on your side, regardless of differing reasons or not. |
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09-02-2007, 04:51 AM | #36 |
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Aight Puppychow, I understand what you said... I think. However, from your point of view it seems to me that you're saying make it illegal, because you don't trust the men to remain committed. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
But the option should be there for them to take advantage of it. If half the gay population want to be swingers, that's always 100% available to them, but if the other half want to settle down and live ordinary lives, just with a partner of the same sex, who are we (we being gov't) to step in and tell them they can't, because we don't trust them to stay together? The argument seems ludicrous...
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09-02-2007, 04:54 AM | #37 |
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Chill out YMH. I was merely pointing out that it was a bad example. Seriously, go take a walk or something. Tears are hardly good for your keyboard.
Edit: FT, I think PPC is saying the opposite. He is saying to include gays under the definition of marriage as it's not a choice.
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09-02-2007, 05:03 AM | #38 | |
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Law should be law, no matter what the law is. Law is typically created/enacted/enforced as a precedent has been set and you just can't trust people to sometimes act this way and at others act that way. Not very clear, I know, I'm pooped. edit - correct innoc. all i have blabbered was about if it was NOT a choice. i love gay people; they are pretty and rainbow colored like skittles! Ok...settle down... |
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09-02-2007, 05:11 AM | #39 |
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Because straight relationships stay great.
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09-02-2007, 05:20 AM | #40 |
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pretty weak reply. basically a "i'm gay and don't tread on me" one. i awknowledged the ratio 'aint great, but you know yourself better than anyone the scene and how many partners people have. it's not the same and you know it. don't be coy or play victim. whether or not that should be a factor is a different story. but the numbers are not the same.
Last edited by puppychow; 09-02-2007 at 05:26 AM. |
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