Assisted Movement, does it break AVD?

[Bridget]

Thanks for pointing that out, I completely forgot about Snipers being able to shoot their team mates across the map.

[Pon]

In my opinion, this kind of thing was good and useful in TFC, but in FF has become overpowered. Which doesn't seem too far off most every other post here

Yes, the main issue is there is no downside to it, not the fact that it's possible... Armour strip may not be the entire reason, but I do think it's a major factor.

For example, the TFC servers I played on (.id's) used it as standard. As a result, people boosted across the map were generally easier to kill - by SG, sniper, shotty blasts, all of the above etc. - even pipe traps were more effective because they didn't have to do so much damage to kill, and could thus be spread over a wider area.

In all honesty, I think that should really be the first thing to try. Making a radical change has too much potential pitfalls, whereas this is something that has been tried and tested in a similar environment. It's a good place to start from, if you get what I mean.


It's also something I've wondered if it's possible to enable (in an extremely hacky way) in Lua. I may experiment for the hell of it...

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Pon

It's also something I've wondered if it's possible to enable (in an extremely hacky way) in Lua. I may experiment for the hell of it...

I was thinking the same thing. It's definitely possible (and wouldn't be too hard).

Semi-pseudo-code:

player_ondamage( player, damageinfo )
  -- if on the same team and not damaging self
  if victim:GetTeamId() == attacker:GetTeamId() and not victim:GetId() == attacker:GetId() then
    -- get damage
    damage = damageinfo:GetDamage()
    -- perhaps apply some reduction to damage (maybe based on armor type?)
    damage = damage / 2
    -- strip armor
    victim:RemoveArmor( damage )
    -- already did the stripping, don't damage further
    damageinfo:SetDamage( 0 )
  end
end

It'd require friendly fire to be on to work, though.

[Pon]

Yeah, something along those lines would work perfectly. Differentiation between the different armour types would be good too, and not that difficult to acheive either I guess.

I'll give it a go next time I'm on my main PC. Whenever that is :/

[chilledsanity]

Here's how I see it:

Boosts have a long history back to TFC and I kind of feel like teamwork like that should be rewarded. Jump pads and pyro jumps are fun, period. Redesigning the maps is a pain in the ass, plus who knows what new future insane-o changes we'll have. However all this stuff adds up to a very crippled defense compared to FF 1.0 or TFC and leads to often very fast rounds in AvD and I/D, something I personally don't like.

I think the best solution is since the devs weren't shy about giving offense powerful movement abilities, defense should be given some powerful measures to counteract them. Here are some suggestions I have:

-Add a buildable "slowing field" where if enemy players pass through it, they move twice as slow.
-Add some sort of barrier engineers can build that can be destroyed (though it would take effort). Something like board or sandbags, etc.
-Make the rockets on sg's a little faster and have them becoming homing rockets on enemies that are airborne (but not ones on the ground).
-Bring back caltrops, but give them to a defensive class, so they can be used for area control.

I'm not saying it would need all these and maybe there are some better options, but I think some of these (particularly slow motion and homing rockets) would go a long way to balancing this. Remember that for AvD things ARE skewed. Offense has had an advantage for so long it's probably considered normal to many people, but go back and play AvD in TFC and you'll see how much more bite defense used to have.

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Also, it's safe to say that the 'brokeness' of these types of 'exploits', are due to poor map design, lack of foresight on the mappers end, etc. I don't think when maps like palermo was made, 'exploits' were kept in mind. You have to remember that almost all AvD maps currently out are based on TFC maps.

I don't think it's fair to have expected the mappers to account for this, unless there were plans to roll out pyro jumps and jump pads when FF was in beta. When you have maps that were more or less functional in 1.0, then the game has radical changes, the maps stayed about the same, calling it bad map design is kind of ironic.

[Dr.Satan]

This is a very interesting topic, and something that I've had to consider a lot when working on the_cove. I definitely agree with a lot of what people have said, but also think that part of it is also map design. And is exactly why the changes I have made to that map were done.

[Pon]

To some degree, yes, it can be down to map design... the problem arises though that features added after a map is released are hard to plan ahead for

(Yes, I mean the Jumppad. Again. )

Seriously though, as I've said elsewhere, AvD maps are in some respects more sensitive to such changes in balance - they are one of the few gamemodes in which both teams aren't trying to acheive the eact same goal at the same time.

In ID it's not such a big problem as the teams switch, but in AvD if either the offence or defence are inherently stronger then it generally messes with the entire balance of the gamemode...

The simple action of picking a team shouldn't confer any advantage - on paper either team should have a fair chance at winning (given somewhat equivalent player skill)... I figure it's a similar reason for why Casbah never seemed to be used much in competitive CTF play.

[Dr.Satan]

yeah, I agree...you can't map for everything, but I think like with cp2 on the_cove how wide open it was, it was very easy to just jump it, so that cp was easily taken. Avoiding things like that will help this issue some, but something like armour stripping would be an amazing addition too!

I also really liked mushy's idea:

friendly push forces from teammates have a max cap of a very low push.

This is something that would be really cool because it would keep _some_ movement assistance, but not break maps like an 8 pipe trap does. And I also agree that we should remove the team push force from detpacks

[Hawk Eye]

You guys keep using 8 pipe trap as an example.. I have never seen someone properly control themselves after that number of pipes.

[Dr.Satan]

Just off the top of my head and from experience in play tests; I can, as can squeek, mushy, and elmo. Even if not though, 2 is powerful enough, and the points being made about facing a full h/a opponent that has been launched are valid. It is just not fair (or possible) and generally ends in cap.

[Eon Seig]

I actually have personal experience with this, but it was on waterpolo and not AvD.

I was the Demoman. My partner in crime was a Pyro. Every time he grabbed the ball, he ran back to a pile of pipes I had laid down and then he Pyro Jumped off of them as I blew the whole thing. He goes across the map and falls down from the height of everest and the entire enemy team does virtually nothing to stop us. We did this 32 freakin times and every single time we succeeded.

So yes, team mates assisting each other with explosive pushes is a little overboard (jump pads should stay. they are FF's teleporter). This is one of the few things TF2 has done correctly, with explosives having no effects friendlies.

[GenghisTron]

Waterpolo is an entirely different circumstance.

[Dr.Satan]

how?

[Eon Seig]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

how?

My thought's exactly (assuming I have any idea what you are talking about).

Waterpolo (just like CTF) is actually nothing more than a two-sided AvD in which both teams can attack and defend. The point being to grab the flag and get past the enemy defense. Whoever gets the flag first attacks, while the other team has to defend. The same tactics still apply for virtually every situation in both game types.

[Firefox11]

Waterpolo has an insanely high skybox and no sniper .lua. The other map with such a high skybox is Palermo, where a competent sniper will pop you out midair.

[Dr.Satan]

yep, my point exactly eon

[Born_In_Xixax]

Waterpolo is an interesting beast, and is a good basis for several current discussions:

- It is (or would be) the most 'pure' sniper map in FF: wide open, extreme range, start shooting as soon as you spawn. However, snipers are disabled on this map by the map maker - why? Possibly because the perfect sniper map, with actual snipers, would be the epitome of lameness...? heh
- Waterpolo without team-assisted boost would be a snooze fest. It would be like NFL footfall without punts, placekicks or the forward pass: brute DM bashing in the middle (without even the benefit of obstacles or scenery) with few, if any, caps. Team boost MAKES THIS MAP FUN (or at least less boring) - as I would submit most AvD lovers would say about other AvD maps that feature team-boost to cap scenarios.

Can team boost be tamed down some - both by adjusting maps and adjusting weapons/physics a bit? - sure. See Eon_Seig's post above for what extreme breakage looks like. But if you nerf it too badly or remove team boost completely, you might remove a unique, wildly fun, and interesting part of the game.

[GenghisTron]

I agree, with Xixax, waterpolo basically depends on assisted movement. We play waterpolo in the TALOS server like... every night, sometimes multiple times a day. And it just doesn't matter, when the server is full, or nearly empty (~4 players) assisted movement makes it fun.

Not only that, waterpolo is a neutral map. And when I mean neutral, each team has a chance to get the ball, and score it. When you're on an AvD map, like ksour, you have one team defending, and one attacking. Assisted movement makes it harder for one team, and easier for the other. In waterpolo's case, each of the teams have equal opportunity to make use of the tools given to them (assisted movement). So yes, waterpolo is an entirely different circumstance than a regular AvD map is.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

I agree, with Xixax, waterpolo basically depends on assisted movement. We play waterpolo in the TALOS server like... every night, sometimes multiple times a day. And it just doesn't matter, when the server is full, or nearly empty (~4 players) assisted movement makes it fun.

Not only that, waterpolo is a neutral map. And when I mean neutral, each team has a chance to get the ball, and score it. When you're on an AvD map, like ksour, you have one team defending, and one attacking. Assisted movement makes it harder for one team, and easier for the other. In waterpolo's case, each of the teams have equal opportunity to make use of the tools given to them (assisted movement). So yes, waterpolo is an entirely different circumstance than a regular AvD map is.

But the teams can't cap concurrently. There is only 1 ball. The teams effectively switch "roles" every time the ball changes to the opposite team's control. In that sense, assisted movement only helps the current ball controllers (just like in AvD).

Also, I'm not sure assisted movement is required for fun. I think just movement in general is. A nade + rocket combo can get you far, but it is at a cost, which is very important. Waterpolo with friendly fire on would be just as, if not more, fun (in my opinion).

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by squeek.

But the teams can't cap concurrently. There is only 1 ball. The teams effectively switch "roles" every time the ball changes to the opposite team's control. In that sense, assisted movement only helps the current ball controllers (just like in AvD).

Yea, that's why I said each team has 'equal opportunity', it's not ideal, but my point still stands. Waterpolo is still vastly different than AvD when all factors are accounted for.

Originally Posted by squeek.

Also, I'm not sure assisted movement is required for fun. I think just movement in general is. A nade + rocket combo can get you far, but it is at a cost, which is very important. Waterpolo with friendly fire on would be just as, if not more, fun (in my opinion).

I don't disagree necessarily, but I know I've gotten my fair share of hearty laughs out of seeing someone get launched sky-high with 8 pipes. However, you do make a good point, if people got launched with consequences (friendly fire) it would make the game a little bit easier. I guess that's one of the parallels you can draw between AvD and waterpolo, then.

I think armor stripping is ideal, though.