FF alive or dead?

[hlstriker]

First impressions matter especially when coming to mods.

I know when I download a mod and it's bug galore and doesn't feel right I rarely go back to try it again later.

[PartialSchism]

Yes.. release / hype up a problematic game to thousands of people, who may or may not download it. Then, if they do download it, they laugh at how X , Y, and Z games are so much better than FF, and never play again.

[Crazycarl]

This mod isn't bug galore. It looks decent, and has some flaws, but it plays well. No mod is ever going to measure up to a big-budget game. That perfect version will never come.

Nothing is going to be chnaged before we go to OB; we are already on the OB code, internally. Anything we change on the old code now will have to be ported over, and we don't want to do that.

A lot of the things sh4x mentioned have already been addressed somewhat. The speed (skim cap), spam (reduced grenades), the "gentleman's rules" (new maps).

Some things, such as player models and voice acting, are beyond our capabilities at this time. We need skilled people and more exposure will help that.

[MonoXideAtWork]

IMO, one of the major features that remains unintuitive to new players is offhand grenades. If we were to tighten up the class roles, remove overlaps and superflous shotguns, replacing them with a grenade slot, left click for frag, right click for special, it would all flow much better.

[TheKing]

If there was a way to release this over steam as-is that would go a LONG way. My point above was that as it stands now there's no change that you could make to the gameplay that would significantly grow the player base. That really sums it up right there.

[Sh4x]

Just out of curiosity... does anyone know of another game that promotes bhoping other than TFC?

[Sh4x]

Originally Posted by shadow

or maybe if we actually released this on steam instead of spending years trying to "fix" it, we'd have players who like the game for what it is.

I wish it would be released on steam just so we would know if it was actually worth it or not.

There seems to be a lot of ppl thinking it would make a huge difference.

[GeoKill----->]

As in Recent games? or Old games?

Q3F, ETF, UNF, Q4F, Warsaw, Tribes, Tribes 2, Battlefield 2, I heard you can bhop in Dystopia, soldat, Quake Live, Theif The Dark Project, Painkiller and all of the Quake games, though not sure about Quake 4. There might be more

[Crazycarl]

You can bhop in Thief? That is so wrong.

[NeonLight]

Originally Posted by GeoKill----->

As in Recent games? or Old games?

Q3F, ETF, UNF, Q4F, Warsaw, Tribes, Tribes 2, Battlefield 2, I heard you can bhop in Dystopia, soldat, Quake Live, Theif The Dark Project, Painkiller and all of the Quake games, though not sure about Quake 4. There might be more

Yeah you can in Q4

[Sh4x]

K thanks for the list.

Imo bhop is dying slowly but surely. I doubt we'll see new games coming out with bhop. Or at least, if you can bhop, it won't give you a real speed advantage over someone who doesn't.

[Rutabeggar]

It has been my opinion from the beginning that this game was made to satisfy the needs of the community TF2 was leaving out, AKA old TFC players who were unhappy with Valve's direction. Whether the latest patches were catering to a new player base or not is now irrelevant, the damage was done months ago. There is nothing now that can change the impression FF made. It's why I stopped participating in beta/leagues/FF in general. It became full of egocentric douchebags attracted by the allure of recapturing a past gaming experience. I loved TFC, but it was time for something new. I had hoped FF would expand upon TFC and make it a genuine experience, but it was just like playing TFC, only full of the exact people I didn't want to play with in TFC. I've attempted to keep up with FF from the start, but school and life in general detracted from that.

I think that's where the problem lies. People have lives, this game doesn't cater to people who play casually, take a couple of weeks off, and come back, only to find their skill level to have regressed and have to start from scratch again. It takes too long to establish skill, establish a "home" server, leave, and then return. The curve is too steep, the reward too small. FF's fate was written when nothing changed from the start. This game is too similar among a generation of games that are too different.

[GeoKill----->]

Shax are you suggesting removing bhop? Also Why? I really do not see a problem with bhop being fast, especially since FF Training is on the works.

[Sh4x]

Yeah I'm suggesting removing bhop because it's one of the main reasons why I don't play FF anymore: The need to bhop to compete.

Today I hate bhop, I think it's annoying as fuck to have to jump all the time while moving my mouse just to catch up some speed so that I can get to die a little faster in the enemies base and repeat the same process again. Seriously, I know there are still a couple ppl emotionally attached to this type of gameplay (You're one of them obviously, and I'm not saying its bad by any means, make that clear) but it will never be popular again. Todays gamers won't fall for that, that seems pretty obvious to me now that I watch this whole thing from a larger perspective.

I used to like this TFC gameplay very much back in the days. Fast paced action, bhoping, HH concs and all that jazz. But let's be honest, that's fucking hardcore. Too hardcore for any casual gamer to get into like Rutabeggar just said (I 100% agree with what you said Ruta) It came at a time where multiplayer was in full expansion with TFC. No wonder it caught the attention of so many ppl. It was a great game requiring teamwork and it was amazing to be flying all over the place. But it's old now and games have evolved, the market has changed, etc. What was hot in the 90's isn't necessarily hot now.

I started playing TF2 gathers and it's so much fun. I play soldier, I can rocketjump all over the place and finally appreciate a real teamwork effort because I have time to! I don't have to be bhoping as fast as possible to the enemies base without really knowing where the fuck the rest of my team is and hope that our runs kinda match and turn shits in our favor.

In TF2 I get to communicate what is going on with my team and plan attacks/defenses, secure points or move forward, force uber or not, etc... I really get a better sense of teamwork because the gameplay is slow enough that I can actually appreciate what is going on instead of mindlessly bhoping as fast as possible to the enemies base to keep them on their toes.

When you think about it, speed is one of the most if not the most important thing in FF. The best players in this game all have this in common, they're amazingly fast and they can aim. In TF2, speed is not nearly as important. What's important is teamwork and aim.

So yeah, I'm not really liking this FF gameplay as it it anymore. It's way too dependant on bhop/speed/repetition and doesn't give enough in return. My finger hurts after a while because of all the jumping. I think TF2 nailed it as far as what the TF experience should be like and I wish we had taken approximately the same direction with this mod. If we had made a game that plays kinda like TF2 does today, we could have added some additional features and gametypes with the power of lua that would have made this mod even more popular than TF2 is imo. Now all we have is a remake of the older version of TF which is exactly that, old.

So I'm still hoping for some major changes of direction in this mod. Like I said, we could leave FF as is for ppl who still want to play it, and start a new mod in date of the OB port, call it some other name and go from there. Aim to produce a game that will fit in todays market and please casual gamers as much as hardcore gamers. That would be truly amazing imo and I would definitely resume work on carnival at that point.

[zE]

Interested topic but, if FF was = to TF2 i would prefer TF2 cuse the community size and the the looks of it lol.

What makes TFC>FF great is the learning curve. I play FF for like 2 years and im still learning new stuff, thats what makes me hooked in gaming, not instant stuf.

Thats why i have fun playng TF2 for 30 min, and can play FF for several hours

What kills FF is the nazi admins and the flames imo

[killu]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

To answer the original Q...

I think in its actual state, FF is dead. Here are some flaws in order of importance that I think are responsible for this:

- Gameplay is way too fast
- Having to bhop to compete is annoying
- Spam is omnipresent
- Our models animations suck and are hard to tell apart
- Lag kicks in pretty fast with action
- You spawn/die too often, gets repetitive, your life has no real value
- Unwritten rules are required to enjoy the game for some

The market has changed since the TFC era, and FF is offering the same gameplay as TFC but to todays gamers.
Of course TFC was the shit for several years but now it got surpassed by better games, better adpated to what gamers of today want.
I would love to see this team take a completely new direction and let go this old gameplay. We could always leave FF working like this and start a new branch with the OB conversion. If FF was more like TF2 and would actualy compete, we could do some amazing stuff with lua and maybe have a game that's even more popular than TF2. For example, I think the carnival map would be totally insane in a TF2 environment. TF2 is nice, but could be so much better with all the fun games that we could pull off with lua...

All in all, I think what I'm saying is we should port FF to OB, remove bhop, reduce speed, leave nades but reduce the amount, make new models, give the medic a medigun, leave concs in but reduce their power. Then start making awesome fun maps with lua power! Heh... in my dreams.

This could possibly be the worst input I've ever heard. The fact that you're part of FF staff is pretty frightening.

You want to remove bunnyhopping? I'm pretty sure that's a HUGE PART of this game. Movement and control is imperative to being successful at this game. You suggest taking it away because it's too difficult to learn? It's 100% times easier than it was in TFC and if anybody in FF wants to progress as a player in this game they can easily learn the skill.

Bunnyhopping is part of what actually makes this game great and fun. Without it we'd be walking in straight lines just like that shit game TF2. Yeah, that would be so much better...

[squeek.]

To me, the great thing about FF is that it is NOT like most other games. We need to revel in our uniqueness, in the speed of the game, and in the challenge.

In a market of slow, aim-based FPS games, I think if we do a sufficient job of explaining why our game is different and how to enjoy it from the first time a player loads FF, we can capture and hold a portion of the market that is looking for something different.

If not, I'd rather FF die* trying than for it to conform to what people think today's gamers want.

* FF isn't dead until there are zero people developing it

[Skanky Butterpuss]

Originally Posted by squeek.

To me, the great thing about FF is that it is NOT like most other games. We need to revel in our uniqueness, in the speed of the game, and in the challenge.

In a market of slow, aim-based FPS games, I think if we do a sufficient job of explaining why our game is different and how to enjoy it from the first time a player loads FF, we can capture and hold a portion of the market that is looking for something different.

If not, I'd rather FF "die" trying than to conform to what people think today's gamers want.

i agree with all of this.

[Rutabeggar]

Originally Posted by squeek.

To me, the great thing about FF is that it is NOT like most other games. We need to revel in our uniqueness, in the speed of the game, and in the challenge.

In a market of slow, aim-based FPS games, I think if we do a sufficient job of explaining why our game is different and how to enjoy it from the first time a player loads FF, we can capture and hold a portion of the market that is looking for something different.

If not, I'd rather FF die* trying than for it to conform to what people think today's gamers want.

* FF isn't dead until there are zero people developing it

The explanations may be sufficient, but it doesn't change the fact that there's little to no reward in learning the game. FF is a lot like General Motors. New looking car, same old story. Low fuel economy, little incentive to buy the car when opposed to a company like Toyota or Honda (TF2 and other FPS shooters) with plenty of options, excellent quality, high fuel economy, and incentive to buy again. The reason FF has yet to take off is the same reason GM is failing. It cannot keep up with the current market and alternative games for equal or lesser value (replay value mind you). In order for FF to take off, there has to be compromise of sorts, a change in values and goals in order to reach a goal greater than what has already been established.

[killu]

Originally Posted by Rutabeggar

The explanations may be sufficient, but it doesn't change the fact that there's little to no reward in learning the game. FF is a lot like General Motors. New looking car, same old story. Low fuel economy, little incentive to buy the car when opposed to a company like Toyota or Honda (TF2 and other FPS shooters) with plenty of options, excellent quality, high fuel economy, and incentive to buy again. The reason FF has yet to take off is the same reason GM is failing. It cannot keep up with the current market and alternative games for equal or lesser value (replay value mind you). In order for FF to take off, there has to be compromise of sorts, a change in values and goals in order to reach a goal greater than what has already been established.

Buy the car? First off FF is free which is one up over the other games mentioned. Little reward in learning the game? I'm pretty sure the reward is the same as any other game ever created...to become good at it.

You mention goals pertaining to a video game, what goals do these other games have? I really hope you're not suggesting something like the achievements such as what they have in TF2 which I'm fairly confident has nothing to do with TEAM Fortress game play. Although I'm sure pubbers may enjoy it the idea.

Personally I'm not sure how anybody can have any fun pubbing in this game, it's just dreadful. Not playing it competitively is a waste of time and is close to no fun at all.