Stayin' Alive

[hf_]

Originally Posted by Sureshot

On the flipside, who wants to play a game where there's nothing worth sticking around for past the basics, and doesn't offer players a high level of freedom of expression in the way it's played?

I agree, TF2 could be a very simple game, with little replay value. I hope that it's not, but we'll see.

[TheWetMule]

Originally Posted by hf_

http://www.forumplanet.com/planethal...48&tid=2061282
..words..

I haven't read it all, but from some of the replys on that thread I can say are pretty shocking :/ for example, one of them complained about being a demoman and anticipating where the scout/med will land quote:"Pipe bombs? ok, well, let me try and guess which spot a person is going to land that just took off from the other side of the map and around a large corner." Well, to be completely honest putting them around a well used pathway, in a decently sized area is basically like a nuke.

There was also a poster who moaned about people conc jumping in total, proceeding to say "REAL MEN STAY ON THE GROUND! RAWWWWWWWWR"(Not exact quote.) but to be quite honest, I see noobs rocketing themselves around and such, infact on alot of dustbowl servers I've played random people join I've never seen join before and they pipe/rocket jump, infact its one of the easiest things to pick up.

Another quote that amused me :P "I'll try Fortress Forever, but I might have to hack to even the odds against some killjoy exploiting the game's physics to perform impossible aerial maneuvers. All in a day's work..."

Hardly exploiting if the devs intended it to be that way, also I've never been overly good at CTF, but I still enjoy attempting to play :/ This guy kinda seems to be the type who would enjoy opening CS:S picking up a shotgun, aiming at the persons feet and hitting the head, which to me really ruined it for CS:S ;/

NOTE: I probably sound a cunt in 90% of my opinions but I felt it needed to be said :P

[PHISH]

A video based purely on movement for tf2 would get the same reaction from new players (how can you even stop that!?!). It's well understood internally that something like this wasn't targeted at new players, but to show people familiar with the movement aspect of games what is possible. I believe it accomplished that, and it was a bit of fun. Would it have ultimately been better not to release it? Dunno, perhaps.

But anyone that might have been turned off by a skill video will come to understand how normal gameplay is before release, likely through a trailer vid.

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by PHISH

But anyone that might have been turned off by a skill video will come to understand how normal gameplay is before release, likely through a trailer vid.

You beat me to saying it...

The game lacks all of the final polish to be able to produce an quality trailer that shows how the game will really look and play. The only thing that could be shown off at this point in time was the movement which is pretty much the same that was in TFC.

Plenty of videos exist in TFC showing that these things are possible, like the Last Dinosaur vids and numerous conc/pipejump vids, so what is the deal with everyone?

Fortress Forever is like putting on your favorite pair of shoes or having sex with your ex girlfriend... once you slip into it it feels so comfortable. Not too tight, not too loose... just right. And a little sweaty.

I think that describes it best.

[AfterShock]

Originally Posted by hf_

... TFC (and I assume FF) is a fairly specialized game, and it takes a lot of effort and time to get good at it. While this is a rewarding experience for some, others don't want to put forth the effort to learn the game. .... Unfortunately, I think the only way of solving this problem would be to dumb down FF, which many hardcore TFC fans are unwilling to see, ... I think Valve's approach to TF2 was smart by simplifying the gameplay, yet still offering diverse class experiences for players to master. Many see this as Valve betraying their sacred TFC, but TFC has many problems, and I think the same problems will carry over into FF.

TFC was the biggest online multiplayer game for a long time. It was HUGE. Learning the game is NOT hard. NS is very hard to learn. I remember spawning as skulk in a hive and the way out was a small hidden ventilation duct halfway up the wall, which you have to climb the wall to get to. The map and minimap helped a lot but i think the damage was done by then.

FF is easy to learn. All you need to do is pick a class and know how to press buttons 1 to 5 and fire. Setting up a sentry gun is as easy as selecting weapon 4 and pressing fire. same for a detpack. right click for all classes is a special and when you start the game for the first time the hints will tell you what your special ability is and what the class is good at. Sniper class has a sniper rifle, right click to zoom, left to fire. How hard is that?

TFC had many problems, one of the biggest being no grenade timer. Grenades were such an important part and yet you had to guess when they would explode. FF has sound timers AND visible timers and is focused around getting noobs to understand how to use grenades - after all, the rest is pure simple point and click, CS style. Bunny hopping is another skill to learn but again, it is not necessary to learn and you can frag away happily without it (spies cant bhop while cloaked, snipers theres no need, HWGuy cant while firing, soldier in position doesnt need to.. engineer behind SG doesnt need to.. etc). Also most people dont bother hopping whilst DMing. Theres no reason why a noob cant load up the game and have some awesome fun within 30 minutes, and that is certainly the devs aim.

[Jiggles]

A lot of people "grew up" on CS and other realistic shooters. To them, advanced movement stuff like bhopping and even concing is "silly." It's not easy to reason someone out of a gut reaction -- something they never really reasoned themselves into, after all. As much as I'd like our fanbase to be as large as possible, I still want to be working on a game I want to play.

[own3r]

I can remember talking to my brother about what he thought about TFC having never played it: He thought it was "a stupid thing to jump off of a grenade" and to "fire rockets at your feet to fly" and "jump around like a headless chicken".

These are common reactions to TFC, to break these reactions down we have to make people realise its actually pritty cool to have these abilities and show them in a normal use. Context is important. Also show normal gameplay (maybe from a PT) would be worth doing.

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by own3r

I can remember talking to my brother about what he thought about TFC having never played it: He thought it was "a stupid thing to jump off of a grenade" and to "fire rockets at your feet to fly" and "jump around like a headless chicken".

I think the opposite is true for games like CS. If I wanted to have serious firefights where one headshot kills you and you can not fly around like a dumbass, I would have signed up for the military.

TFC and FF are just so much more fun to me. Rather than worry about your entire team being wiped, you have to actually focus on things like the offense and defense of your team and work together.

Besides, it is far more challenging to land a HH conc right where you want to and run out with the flag than it is to sit on your ass and headshot a terrorist with the AWP.

[CatzEyes93]

Originally Posted by tu!

quick dev. team! make another video for noobs that have never palyed tf.

I know you are being sarcastic, but you have a point there.

If a noob were to look at that video they would assume that the talent portrayed was the standard. Only to come to find out they still have some learning to do, they might be put off and leave.

I can appreciate the need to satisfy the hunger of the established player and that you wanted to put up a "see! yes you can do here just like in TFC!" but we dont want to forget the new market as well.

My feedback and then I will shut my piehole.

A) The video was beautiful and very nicely done. Major Kudos to your media person.

B) This is more and more becoming a game that is marketed for established players and not new players. Case in point Staying Alive video shows concing as a main favorite functionality... almost to the point of it looking like it is the only functionality. You are forgetting your market people! If you want to appeal to both noob and established players, you MUST market the appeal to both! Your noobs are gonna look at those videos and will find nothing they can relate to or feel confident about. Where is your market, and are you appealing to them. That is my question and if you are trying to market to both, my answer so far is no.

C) I saw no "team" play in any of the videos I have seen so far. Case in point, count how many times you saw a group of people attacking or storming the cap point. If I remember correctly... all cap storming was done by one single person. wtf? hello? I know this isnt team fortress classic, but I didnt know fortress forever was taking out the need to act as a team!? We NEED to see this in your videos.

D) And thank you for showing proof that being an engi is a useless cause. Thanks a lot. Case in point, the one sg that was shown, did not get the kill. Courtesy of the need to appeal to the established flyer, you have also dashed the hope of all engies around the world all in one fell swoop.

[barronofhellion]

Originally Posted by own3r

I can remember talking to my brother about what he thought about TFC having never played it: He thought it was "a stupid thing to jump off of a grenade" and to "fire rockets at your feet to fly" and "jump around like a headless chicken".

i sorta agree with that, but tfc is a whole different style... but i do have one thing to say, when you nade or rocket jump you have a drawback, you get damaged - +falldamage .. which a conc jump you get a little dizzy that really doesn't affect players achiving a flag run because you dont really even use your weapons as scout/medic.. (medic nailgun sometimes)... i suggest if you conc and hit a wall you should take impact damage, but if you land square on your feet you should only take fall damage if it applies.. i know it wont happen but it would make it more balanced..

[Sureshot]

Originally Posted by CatzEyes93

B) This is more and more becoming a game that is marketed for established players and not new players. Case in point Staying Alive video shows concing as a main favorite functionality... almost to the point of it looking like it is the only functionality. You are forgetting your market people! If you want to appeal to both noob and established players, you MUST market the appeal to both! Your noobs are gonna look at those videos and will find nothing they can relate to or feel confident about. Where is your market, and are you appealing to them. That is my question and if you are trying to market to both, my answer so far is no.

What about the Dustbowl Valley video? That was far more about general gameplay, rather than any kind of focus towards seasoned players.

[tu!]

Originally Posted by CatzEyes93

I know you are being sarcastic, but you have a point there.

i wasn't being sarcastic.

Originally Posted by barronofhellion

i sorta agree with that, but tfc is a whole different style... but i do have one thing to say, when you nade or rocket jump you have a drawback, you get damaged - +falldamage .. which a conc jump you get a little dizzy that really doesn't affect players achiving a flag run because you dont really even use your weapons as scout/medic.. (medic nailgun sometimes)... i suggest if you conc and hit a wall you should take impact damage, but if you land square on your feet you should only take fall damage if it applies.. i know it wont happen but it would make it more balanced..

no thanks.

[4est]

Originally Posted by PHISH

A video based purely on movement for tf2 would get the same reaction from new players (how can you even stop that!?!). It's well understood internally that something like this wasn't targeted at new players, but to show people familiar with the movement aspect of games what is possible. I believe it accomplished that, and it was a bit of fun. Would it have ultimately been better not to release it? Dunno, perhaps.

But anyone that might have been turned off by a skill video will come to understand how normal gameplay is before release, likely through a trailer vid.

Some people say there is no such thing as bad publicity...

Who knows?

[Etzell]

CatZ, the idea of the video was to show movement. That's why there was no HW, and very little engy. (The engy did the cool double-jump in CZ2, fyi.) It was made to show what concs, pipes, rockets, and whatnot have to offer, it wasn't really a gameplay video. While I understand the idea that a LOT of people didn't pick up on that, and it's disappointing for sure, the video was never meant to show teamplay elements, or how great every single class is. The engy got left out because EMP jumping, while entertaining... isn't really that useful. The HW didn't get shown either, if you noticed.

I totally understand your reaction, though. It's just a matter of having to analyze the video more than needed...

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by AfterShock

TFC was the biggest online multiplayer game for a long time. It was HUGE. Learning the game is NOT hard. NS is very hard to learn. I remember spawning as skulk in a hive and the way out was a small hidden ventilation duct halfway up the wall, which you have to climb the wall to get to. The map and minimap helped a lot but i think the damage was done by then.

It was the biggest for a couple years. I wouldn't call it HUGE though. I would save the HUGE remark for describing the CS community.

Also, learning how to function in TFC isn't all that hard. It's easy to go medic, run around, shoot people with the shotgun, heal some people with the med pack, and maybe grab a flag and cap it. It's much harder to do the advanced things like conc jumping, bunnyhopping, and conc aiming.

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by Sureshot

What about the Dustbowl Valley video? That was far more about general gameplay, rather than any kind of focus towards seasoned players.

IMO Dustbowl Valley had nothing to do with gameplay. Most of it was showing off the map and the rest of it was just 1 second clips of random stuff going on in the map that really didn't show much at all since the clips were too short.

[Sureshot]

But it definitely appealed more to those with limited or no knowledge of the TF genre (bar the clips being very short, I agree). It was pretty well received across the board as far as I remember.

[GhOsT]

I'll agree with that. The non-rabbid-fan types out there really only care to see what the game looks like. They really don't care that you can do a double conc across the map while zig zagging in the air and topping it off with a trimp off a ramp to grab a flag. Which would explain why the more casual types are concerened with this video.

[CatzEyes93]

thanks for not flaming me guys. I truely didnt want to come off sounding like a bitch. I only wanted to offer some constructive feedback from my perspective.

[SmellyCat]

I really hope you can find a fix to that first person demo bug - would so love to see some FF action from FP, it made rizzo's cz2 shiz stand out even more. :O

Enjoying the leet sd2 look, also. :]