Sniper: Removal from CTF maps?

[Thor-Stryker]

Well considering it would be a cvar thats only activated for league play, its the simple fact to bring about balance on how defense can be a player short to support a sniper. While the sniper is a class to relies heavily on prediction and reflex in any game, to make it viable for alternative defense in FF, you have to reduce the return time of enemy players to their objective. Since a sniper's gameplay zone is getting them out of the gate, the best way to make him viable is to cause spawn delay from death when radio tagged.

Code-wise I believe its possible, theres a time-delay for suicides already.
You can also add a message upon death, when radiotagged, your spawn-delay has been extended because of it.

As for made up story to fit in the FF universe, the electrical charge of radio-tags mess up the circulatory system when the player dies, which causes their body to take a longer time to re-materialize(Or respawn.)

[SSCUJO]

potential problem... if a sniper was to kill a scout in 1 hit, would the respawn delay still take into effect? if so that would make every kill by a sniper casue a respawn delay... is that still balanced?

[Thor-Stryker]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

potential problem... if a sniper was to kill a scout in 1 hit, would the respawn delay still take into effect? if so that would make every kill by a sniper casue a respawn delay... is that still balanced?

That I believe would have to be found through testing, taking the relatively skilled snipers in the FF community (Ones who can actually hit scouts/medics) running them through a few clan matches, then taking their results (Do they kill 1 out of 3 times? Do they only tap their targets?) and then apply whether or not kill shots should count as respawn delays.

Example:
Statistics find that average, "tourney level" snipers kill their offensive target one out of six times, as compared to a soldier in the flag room who kills their target one out of three times. Statistically, the average soldier is killing twice as much as a sniper, then you need to add the delay time it would take for the scout to reach that spot three more times(To compensate for the fact that the sniper is only killing him half as much.), then divide it by three(Which is how many more times the scout could run through if he was fighting a sniper vs a soldier.) and you have your number. Additional stats can be generated by how much health a soldier loses per a fight on defense and how much time it takes for them to reach respawn.

If anyone understands that and can do math, they could lay it out in mathematical terms.

Alternatively you can pick a number out of the hat and just run a bunch of clan matches till you find what amount of time required for a delay works to bring the sniper up to par.

Edit:
Another way would be to have a timer that charges up as the sniper fails to hit the enemy.
So either the sniper will only be adding 1-2 seconds per 1Offensive player if hes extremely good at tagging.
Or he'll be adding 9-10 seconds per .3-5Offensive player(In the sense that One offensive player equals one attempt by the enemy team to reach their objective.)
Naturally balanced through play testing.

^This I feel would encourage more unique tactics and help bring more balance between the highly skilled snipers, and the mediocore ones in clan play. A skilled sniper could purposely avoid targeting the scout in order to cause a longer delay for a medic whos tearing up the snipers base. Or he could just tag every target and attempt leg shots to add extended delay through movement.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

Originally Posted by mrblowtatoes

You forget..in the rules of leage play...heavy classes are also not allowed to cross the yard. [dunno who invented that dumbass idea] thus a sniper has no purpose.


in leage play...pretty much any class able to destroy defense is not allowed to cross. [specificly, demo, soldier, hwguy....i played on =AE= server when i heard of this rule] no shit snipers are useless in leage play.

yeahhhh, it might be a good idea for you to understand the rules of league play before you start talking about them, since, ya know, there is no rule prohibiting heavy offense... heavy O is used on occasion, but its generally not as effective as light O, so it isnt used as much. a team can run all soldiers and HWs on offense if they want, they just wont get many caps. and chances are, they will be laughed at.


as for a radio tag respawn delay... this is an idea that will slow down the pace of the game. one of the main things people love about TFC and FF compared to games like TF2 (on some servers as im told), CS, DOD, Dystopia, etc. is the ability to get right back into the game after you get killed. this is what makes the game so fun and fast paced (along with, of course, bunnyhopping, concing, etc), and the fast pace is what draws most people to this game. slowing the game down will end up pissing off a lot of our dedicated fans (myself included). as it is now, having to wait to respawn is a punishment for suiciding; it stops you from just killing yourself and getting back into the game when you have low health, and it is effective in that sense. respawn delay should act ONLY as a punishment, and frankly getting picked off from across the map doesnt warrant any punishment. that would not be even close to fair. the only thing i could see that might be kinda decent to give a little respawn delay would be a melee kill, just for laughs. but even that, i would disagree with.

sniper slows down the game more than enough already with his legshots. oh and i am fairly sure that you take an extra second or so to spawn if you yet killed by a headshot as it is now anyway. at least i remember it being like that in beta ( Aftershok). a respawn delay will just make him more hated than he is now.

[SSCUJO]

hahahaha told you it would piss off offensive players lol

its a shame that they are the ones that make the majority of the decisions.. oh well.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

cujo, ive vouched for you as being one of the few non-douchey sniper exclusive players that ive come into contact with. dont make me regret that :P

honestly though, this is a game founded on speed. slowing it down is only going to push away part of the already dedicated fanbase. im all for the sniper being revamped into something that is useful in clan matches (there have been a few suggestions that just might do the trick), but there needs to be a balance between useful and annoying. i have and will continue to denounce any idea that slows this game down, as the main thing that keeps me coming back to it is the fast pace. if you want a slow game where you can snipe at your leisure, there are plenty out there, some of which ive already mentioned.

[betterschindt]

first if you read any of my posts, I am a PRO 1.1 sniper or better.
and I have to say NO, i mean NEVER, NO, PLEASE FFS NO RESPAWN DELAY.
that is the single reason, besides classes, that i kept playing tfc, and did not switch to counter strike.

NO RESPAWN DELAYS. no matter what circumstances. I guarantee you will lose player base if it is implemented.

[Thor-Stryker]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

hahahaha told you it would piss off offensive players lol

its a shame that they are the ones that make the majority of the decisions.. oh well.

Since I started watching the development of this mod, it seems thats how its always been. But then again standard CTF gameplay has always been comparatively flawed in nature to what is TF2. If special rules have to be created in order to play the game competitively, then the game is not balanced symmetrically, its balanced on opinion or how it "should" be played.

But I do understand that offensive is a lot more challenging than defense, as there are also a lot more defensive classes in this game than offense. My suggestion for the sniper would bring about balance for clan play, but it would reduce the level of entertaining for the players.

So the question is do you want a balanced game, or an entertaining game. This is the basis for a lot of games. Its extremely entertaining to get some over-powered unique item in Super Smash Bros Brawl and kill everyone, but its not balanced. Criticals are entertaining for one person, but it doesn't reward the one who gets hit.

Just as adding delay to enemies if they get killed by a sniper in clan match, it influences the highs and lows of gameplay. But unlike tf2, its the community thats running the show, so are they willing to accept change, or leave it as is? I feel there are too many weighted, polarized opinions that drive this game, the elite run the weak.

[SSCUJO]

regarding to the two posts above Thor's

see the problem is i've been fighting in this thread against people who have for the most part played there entire fortress lives hating snipers becasue they are annoying... and these same people are now trying to shape it.

im sorry for being a bit testy.

we finally have a solution to the number 1 problem for snipers and the number 1 reason (said by league players) why hes not in clan play. and the idea gets completely destoryed with no sign of suggestions, modifications, or ideas. come on people... a 3 second delay would prolly even it up with most of the defense classes, sure u have to wait a couple more seconds, all that does is make you think twice when you run out against a sniper.

as most league players say, a sniper can't hit or kill them, so they really don't have anyhting to worry about.

[greenday5494]

Originally Posted by betterschindt

first if you read any of my posts, I am a PRO 1.1 sniper or better.
and I have to say NO, i mean NEVER, NO, PLEASE FFS NO RESPAWN DELAY.
that is the single reason, besides classes, that i kept playing tfc, and did not switch to counter strike.

NO RESPAWN DELAYS. no matter what circumstances. I guarantee you will lose player base if it is implemented.

agree

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by mrblowtatoes

Pyro has less use than a sniper. Prove me wrong.

#FF.Pickup

[SSCUJO]

gotta agree with squeek here, i think with the 1.11 sniper and a good player, pyro and sniper could be considered equal in usefulness in CLAN STYLE play no contest in 2.0 tho

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by mrblowtatoes

2. They arn'tplaying the agme the way it is meant to be played. So really, i don't think they should have any say in this issue..as they are playing by rules they invented, not by the rules the devs implemented into the game.
...
Remember, devs, and everyone else...alot of people who play FF, don't give a shit about capture points.

If you "don't give a shit about capture points", I'd say that you aren't "playing the game as it is meant to be played." Capturing or defending the flag is entirely the "way the game is meant to be played" if you are playing a CTF map.

But, I say again: come spec or play a pickup. Or spec a UGC match. You're view of clanstyle play is very skewed.

Also, feel free to check out the rules involved in a pickup. There really are not that many.

Knowledge is power.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by mrblowtatoes

Ive played clan style on =ae=..after i heard some of the rules i left..like how snipers are not allowed, and how DMing [WHAT THE FUCK how the fuck are you supposed to stop offense?..BS!] and midmapping [more BS.."don't chase or fight in the middle of the yard, if the flag is out of your base, it belongs to the enemy BS BS BS"...i should be able to put HWGUY and 3 sentries inside the enemy base. and keep the enemy team inside its spawn] is against the rules. That alone was enough to drive me away. I couldn't build sg outside of my own base. I couldn't take HWGUY or solly across the yard. And that is all i can remember.

When you control the environment like that, your bound to delete some of the usefulness of the classes. And when that is pretty much all you play..or its the viewpoint your coming from. You shouldn't really have a say, because its a biased viewpoint.

"yeah, sniper is obsolete because in OUR set of rules, he has no effective purpose"

I have nothing against clans or clan players...it only erks me when they act like this game is thier game, and it must be built around thier idea of what is useful and what is not. Shit, clan players barely make up 20% of the total FF population.

If you feel you can cap more and defend better with 3 SGs and a HW in the enemy base, then by all means form a team of 5 like-minded individuals and join UGC. There are no gameplay rules implemented in the league thus far.

If you think you can help out in a pickup as an O HW or D sniper, then by all means come and show us in #ff.pickup. I'm all eyes.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by mrblowtatoes

"don't chase or fight in the middle of the yard, if the flag is out of your base, it belongs to the enemy BS BS BS"

That is not a rule. You can chase the flag all the way to the enemy cap point. It is just not really that great of a strategy and you would find that out if you played just 1 match.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by mrblowtatoes

Also,if people gave a crap about capture points [as in the score..not the location] There would be mass migrations to the winning team. People who are on the loosing team in a 20 - 230 score game..stay on thier team because its fun to play FF. Or for what ever reason. If they really wanted a higher score they could simply switch teams.

The lack of focus on map objectives is, in my eyes, one of the biggest flaws with public FF gameplay. It seems like there has been a step up from TFC, but there is still a big individual focus on killcounts and deathcounts in pubs and it is very unfortunate. Whenever someone new is coming to the game I always like to tell them that getting kills and minimizing deaths are not the most important things. Perhaps this is what causes the biggest gap between public and clanstyle play; although, it seems to me that the map objective should and must always be the main focus of any player that wants to contribute to their team.

Also, you do realize it would be quicker to die and respawn than to run back and resupply? Deathcounts don't matter. Honestly.

[Mrboom]

Originally Posted by mrblowtatoes

Deathcounts matter in pubs. Lol. In pub you win the game by how far apart your kill:death ratio is. Unofficially...

Just beacause your team won the flag points, doesn't mean YOU actually contributed anything. And your kill:death score can show that.

Yes this is true is some cases.. But I know that I enjoy the game more when people are actually trying to capture the flag and when the game ends 150 to 140.. Not 20 to 0.

No better feeling they being a sniper and killing the guy inches from his teams capture point.

[SSCUJO]

Originally Posted by squeek.

If you think you can help out in a pickup as an O HW or D sniper, then by all means come and show us in #ff.pickup. I'm all eyes.

knowledge is power, and so is experience

don't go into FF.pickup wanting to play sniper, becasue you will get insulted, harrassed, bullied and personally attacked.

i thought i made some freinds in there, but the second it comes down to "we need 1 more CUJO join!" "What!!! you only play sniper!!! WTF IS WORNG WITH YOU GTFO U SUCK SCREW U SNIPERS ARE THE WORST" and personal insults alike. and don't get me started on how bad it is once you join....

it is NOT just one or two people, but the channel as a group, excluding a few that defending me, not because of sniper, but becasue they like who i am.

the majority of people there are not open to new ideas, and when a new idea arises, 20 people tell you why its bad all at once. they gang up one you and nobody ever steps in. thats why I keep my mouth shut in there, and quitely watch the pickups.

and unfourtunatly the majority of people there are on the beta team, and have a large say on the games direction. im starting to see why TACO-BELL didn't bother fighting for the sniper, it looks hopeless.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

knowledge is power, and so is experience

don't go into FF.pickup wanting to play sniper, becasue you will get insulted, harrassed, bullied and personally attacked.

i thought i made some freinds in there, but the second it comes down to "we need 1 more CUJO join!" "What!!! you only play sniper!!! WTF IS WORNG WITH YOU GTFO U SUCK SCREW U SNIPERS ARE THE WORST" and personal insults alike. and don't get me started on how bad it is once you join....

Yeah... not sure what to do about that really. It is up to the admin whether or not to allow sniper. I'm still disappointed that I missed the pickups you played in as sniper.

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

and unfourtunatly the majority of people there are on the beta team, and have a large say on the games direction. im starting to see why TACO-BELL didn't bother fighting for the sniper, it looks hopeless.

Actually, zero people that regularly play pickups are beta members excluding Ghostbuster but he's been missing since the first preseason match.

Originally Posted by mrblowtatoes

Deathcounts matter in pubs. Lol. In pub you win the game by how far apart your kill:death ratio is. Unofficially...

Just beacause your team won the flag points, doesn't mean YOU actually contributed anything. And your kill:death score can show that.

You do realize the reasoning behind Fortress Points, correct?

[SSCUJO]

I think it boils down to when most PUB players load up FF they arn't thinking "oh yea i can't wait to cap some flags!!!!!" more like "i can't wait to get some frags and own some people"

of course there are exceptions, but eventually you need to look at why pubbers go to play that game, and not try to shove a certain style of game play down thier throat.

some times people just wanna frag.

and arn't you and skanking part of the development? i've seen you guys play in pickups. and i know for sure a good number of people in ff.pickup were on the beta team for 2.0.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

basically me, squeek, and ghostbuster are and were the only people who have any hand at all (read:small) in the development and play pickups often. dr satan idles in like 50 channels, but i dont think ive ever seen him play in a pickup. and i can assure you, none of us would bitch at you for sniping. actually, taco bell played sniper in a pickup on aardvark that i was in, and i kinda just laughed because he was useless and his team lost by a lot.

EDIT: blister is a beta and he plays a little bit too. not much that ive seen though.