01-21-2010, 10:16 PM | #201 | ||
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Inside of your Computron
Class/Position: O/D Sniper, D Engy, D Soldier Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: s^., :e0:, -=[$D$]=-, -AA-, +SUF, .20, [AH(S)]-r, [ . ]-r Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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I am honestly disappointed in myself for continuing to post in this thread but I just can't stop :/
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I don't like the 'this is the way it was in TFC' argument and I'm absolutely in favor of making changes to improve gameplay at the expense of nostalgia (in most cases.. BTW can we bring back "HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU"?), but if you want to bring up opinions on how you personally would like the game and make changes based on your inability to get past snipers... I think that TFC is at least a good starting point for what the game 'should' be. Soldiers standing in a hallway also bottleneck momentum. The sniper is a solid defensive class on some maps when used correctly. To try to get the flag? What's the point of running offense at all? Quote:
If anything it's the sniper that gets lucky to hit a good scout. I've seen some pretty amazing conc jumpers that I can hit in the air maybe 1/5th the time. Yes, skill certainly plays a factor in getting past snipers. Hell, good scouts generally run around every other class and pray that they don't get shot - they don't fight soldiers or HWs, they avoid them in the same way they do snipers. The sniper is just another class with a unique ability that you happen to hate. Last edited by TheKing; 01-21-2010 at 10:21 PM. |
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01-21-2010, 10:39 PM | #202 | |||
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff |
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I was disagreeing with you (or trying to). I guess I didn't highlight the main point of those posts well enough. I'll bold the main point this time (which Mushy just restated a few posts ago; I'll quote his post here too): Quote:
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#FF.Pickup ยค Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington Last edited by squeek.; 01-21-2010 at 10:43 PM. |
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01-21-2010, 10:46 PM | #203 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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And comparing demomen pipes to sniper rifles? Quote:
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01-21-2010, 10:51 PM | #204 |
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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funny thing is bridget doesn't even play this game anymore, bridget doesn't even mind the sniper that much lol, he just wants to start shit. which is exactly what he got.
Last edited by SSCUJO; 01-21-2010 at 10:51 PM. |
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01-21-2010, 10:58 PM | #205 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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You're absolutely right! I do hate it. Why do I hate it? I have legitimate reasons. |
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01-21-2010, 11:13 PM | #206 | |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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I don't need to progressive play Fortress Forever to understand how it works. The development team members don't play that often, and they're the ones calling the shots. Are you going to question their judgment? I spent an entire year playing FF for 10+ hours a day in no-life mode. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how the game works, thanks. Also, for good measure, UMAD. |
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01-21-2010, 11:47 PM | #207 | |
Join Date: May 2009
Class/Position: [O]Spy [D]Soldier Gametype: CTF \ DM Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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What you don't get is that we DO get what he means by power =/= usefulness.
The problem with his argument is that he is putting it into context as if they are completely exclusive to each other, which is a laughably stupid thing to say. Power will always be a factor in deciding how useful a class is overall. Not just in FF, but in pretty much all aspects of game balance accross the board. He is saying that the class is OP based purely on it's attack strength, and that makes no sense. Unless of course he doesn't know that the terms "underpowered" and "overpowered" are tied to the overall balance, in which case he is a fool for starting a thread without knowing the meaning of the very terms he is using. Quote:
Last edited by VentuSag3; 01-22-2010 at 12:08 AM. |
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01-22-2010, 12:09 AM | #208 |
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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birdget everyone one of your posts attacks character i think UMAD
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01-22-2010, 12:44 AM | #209 | ||||||||||
D&A Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ruining #pickups
Class/Position: SPAWN CAMPING OH NO Gametype: Ragequitting Affiliations: [PMS]. [Shiney] Posts Rated Helpful 26 Times
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http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...2&postcount=20 Quote:
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http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...6&postcount=95 Quote:
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=123 Quote:
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=127 Quote:
I heard not ever leaving your base is a good one http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=141 Quote:
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=163 Quote:
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=167 Quote:
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=201 Quote:
Here, let me throw down a useless argument as well! ANYONE, find a post where I support the sniper and say he is fine as is/needs to be improved! (sardonic posts not included, hurrrrr) If you do, I'll give up this argument! Oh wait, you can't! PROVE ME WRONG Last edited by Raynian; 01-22-2010 at 12:45 AM. |
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01-22-2010, 01:42 AM | #210 | ||
Join Date: May 2009
Class/Position: [O]Spy [D]Soldier Gametype: CTF \ DM Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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As for cujo saying sniper doesn't need change, guess I missed it...but the point still stands since I never said so. Quote:
The only thing I am saying is that snipers are not overpowered. If they were overpowered, they would be owning in leagues. That's it. I am not saying they need no change. I am not saying nothing is wrong with the state of the game. I am not saying there are no unbalanced flaws with the class. I am ONLY saying they are not overpowered, and pointing to the pug/league scene as my proof. Last edited by VentuSag3; 01-22-2010 at 02:02 AM. |
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01-22-2010, 02:43 AM | #211 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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Oh, hey. Back to the underpowered vs. overpowered debate. Cool.
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01-22-2010, 02:46 AM | #212 |
Join Date: May 2009
Class/Position: [O]Spy [D]Soldier Gametype: CTF \ DM Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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It's the only thing in this thread that matters IMO.
There is another thread for discussing how to change the Sniper class. |
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01-22-2010, 02:49 AM | #213 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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Except this is not about the class being overpowered. It is about it being out of place. That is what matters.
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01-22-2010, 03:01 AM | #214 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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WRONG! The Sniper is not useful in league play, but this says nothing about his power. He has the ability to kill pretty much every class in one hit with a fully charged shot; headshots at much lower charges. One on one, he has the upper hand and is almost guaranteed a victory, he has control of the fight. He can deal a maximum 273 some points of damage. His minimum damage is 35 or 45 something. Regardless, why isn't he useful? He plays YARD DEFENSE. You can't effectively keep the offense back with the respawn and travel and charge times. You're too close to the enemy base and have too much demanded of you.
What is the solution to this problem? You play forward or rear base defense as another class, which allows for increased travel time until the enemy meets opposition. This gives you some 'breathing room' and some time to resupply. You aren't demanded of as much. You can take your time. Now, even if he weren't overpowered, you would still be illogically supporting your conclusion. As I said before, usefulness says nothing about power, and power says nothing about usefulness. The Sniper is not automatically underpowered or fine simply because he isn't useful in league play. You draw a blank until you can prove (by disproving the claims of those whom the burden of proof lies with) that the class is not overpowered in another context. The Sniper isn't overpowered? I listed reasons why I believe he is. Address them instead of making this same illogical argument over and over. Do you think it's balanced that he can cripple classes who are already at a disadvantage with range? Do you think it's fair he can sometimes one-hit a Heavy weapons guy with a full charge? Do you think it's fair to have a developer implemented wallhack? Why don't you address actual arguments instead of acting like a slogan machine repeating the same "He isn't overpowered, 'cause he isn't used in league player" failed argument? The Sniper is overpowered for general play. Power is defined by a quick Google search: "possession of controlling influence". The Sniper controls the outcome of a fight in all aspects. He can make his shot and win or he can miss and choose his defeat. The other player doesn't bring defeat upon him. Now, you might argue that not being able to hold back incoming offense contradicts the definition of power, but it has been said many times that you are looking at the Sniper over the course of a match. What's wrong with that? The argument is on individual fights (read what Green Mushy said) One on one. Man to man. In these scenarios, the Sniper is highly influencing and controls the experience. You can not effectively fight back. You can not control the fight as the victim, and any attempt at getting to a point where you can is governed by nothing more than luck. Juking requires little skill, not the desirable amount of skill the development team is looking forward to. They want the ability to fight back to be interactive and intuitive. Juking is not interactive, nor cloaking, nor having to waste your health reserves crossing the map, nor having to take alternative routes. You take these options because the Sniper INTERACTS WITH YOU, not the opposite. Therefore, he is overpowered. Good day. Last edited by Bridget; 01-22-2010 at 03:10 AM. |
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01-22-2010, 03:30 AM | #215 | |
Join Date: May 2009
Class/Position: [O]Spy [D]Soldier Gametype: CTF \ DM Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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Bridget, you do realise that the term "overpowered" has nothing to with attack strength and in fact is exactly tied to how useful a certain aspect of any game is, right? "overpowered" in any discussion of game balance has always meant an overall representation with everything taken into account. In this context it does NOT mean "too much power". IMO you really need to specify "Attack strength" and "power" in different terms. Power itself is a highly ambiguous word.
Do you not realize that in your last post you have basically just admitted that what I have been saying is correct? Quote:
Let me put it to you this way: 1+1=2. Basic laws of math and logic dictate this. If someone comes along and claims 1+1=3 then we already know any and all arguments the person makes based on this will be irrational. There is no need to refute arguments that are based on false pressupositions, as they are self refuting. That is exactly what you are saying. In the same way we know 1+1=2, we know Snipers are not owning competitive play. What happens in serious play is based around an overall assessment of how fast, powerful, vital, and reliable the class is - or in other words, game balance. If Snipers overall grade was superior to the other classes like you say, this would not be true. there is only ONE possible exception to this, and that is if something is so incredibly OP it is banned from all forms of serious play. Anything you have to say about Snipers being OP is automatically refuted by the above fact. We know anything you have to say will be fallacious. It's not that I can't debunk your silly arguments, it's that I don't have to because they were already refuted before you even made them. You can whine about their AR, the damage output, and QQ all you like it doesn't change the fact that your arguments are all based on a false premise and are therefore completely wrong. Last edited by VentuSag3; 01-22-2010 at 04:09 AM. |
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01-22-2010, 04:36 AM | #216 |
WhenNailGrenWillOut?
Beta Tester
Join Date: May 2009
Gametype: mp_prematch Affiliations: [:)] - Frag Happy, babe| Posts Rated Helpful 29 Times
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01-22-2010, 04:37 AM | #217 |
The Crowbar Commander
Beta Tester
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Statesville, NC
Class/Position: Anything. Gametype: CTF/CP (AvD needs fixing) Posts Rated Helpful 28 Times
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You all know this argument is a cycle. Right now there's so many opinions that this thread itself is becoming confused and fustrated at the sheer power of idiotic justice -- that everyone here is trying to prove something.
Time to lay it to rest. I say that those who play the sniper most are generally the ones who matter the most when it comes to their class. Changing the sniper is not going to make this game better or worse. What everyone here is trying to accomplish is inevitable. Leave it to rest, let it go. I'm done with it. I have my opinion and I know it doesn't matter to anyone here. Nor does yours. Please close this Thread. |
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01-22-2010, 04:54 AM | #218 |
Ambassador of Everything.
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I actually like this thread, it's quite thought stimulating. I agree with the 'anti-snipers' adamantly... As a Demoman and Soldier, all it takes is one sniper for me to have to completely freaking change my tactics to simply suicide bombing them instead of focusing on what I usually do.
That takes a rocket and two grenades, or three grenades and an MIRV. After the 10th time they won't kill me in midair, so I'll have a chance to spawn camp that prick until he starts crying. But at that point I've got like 30 HP and 5 Armor, all taxes based on the blast damage and falling I've sustained just to get to the other side of the field. So either way I'm screwed. If I don't change my focus to him, I'm pretty much quarantined on my side of the map. I've actually wondered why there wasn't some sort of 'rifleman' class or something like that. We've got nailguns, shotguns, a rail pistol, rocket launchers and a hypervelocity .50 charged round, but nothing that shoots a simple bullet. That element is what I've always felt was missing from this game. And no, the AR is practically an automatic shotgun. It doesn't count. You know what I mean- sort of like an M4. A Gauss Rifle would actually be interesting for the sniper to use. Instead of there being a standard charge, you've got this golf swing thing going on where the more you hit close to the center of the meter, the bigger chance there will be that your shot will be on target. Not sure how you can combine that, but it's an idea. Well, I've got one idea. You hold click first to fix the golf swing meter, then you let go and hold click again to charge it. Something like that. Last edited by Focksbot; 01-22-2010 at 05:03 AM. |
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01-22-2010, 05:23 AM | #219 | |||
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Inside of your Computron
Class/Position: O/D Sniper, D Engy, D Soldier Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: s^., :e0:, -=[$D$]=-, -AA-, +SUF, .20, [AH(S)]-r, [ . ]-r Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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Last edited by TheKing; 01-22-2010 at 05:31 AM. |
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01-22-2010, 07:14 AM | #220 |
The Crowbar Commander
Beta Tester
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Statesville, NC
Class/Position: Anything. Gametype: CTF/CP (AvD needs fixing) Posts Rated Helpful 28 Times
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Everything King just said is true. But I'll add something else.
Potato. That's all. |
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argument, balance, long range, mechanics, sniper |
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