Merged: Disappointed TF2 and TF2 Impressions

[Jiggles]

Now we just need to convince every sever admin to turn it off. Oh, and take 2fort out of the rotations -- 9v9 OvD sucked in TFC, and it sucks even harder in TF2. TF2 is really balanced around CP-gameplay, not CTF (well...not 2fort ctf anyway)

Originally Posted by 4est

I'm amazed that so many ppl accept everything Valve says. They are made of people and can be wrong. Grenades were a similar tool but DID NOT make the classes the same. Valve could make a statement that medics will now have to carry pink dolphins, that slap ppl in the head with their tails, because it will "differentiate the class". There would be those who would say, "hell yes!... Dophins make medics great!".

Changes do not necessarily mean improvement.

Invention does not equate to success. If it was, the inventor of "Toe Floss" would be a rich man.

And exaggerating does not necessarily mean you have made a point.

-----

I like TF2. It's the only game where I can find fun in every class, except sniper, but that's just because I hate waiting for the action. Plus, I can run it on my shitty video card and it still looks good

[NewKleer]

doh, i had mp_timelimit 0 (default, didnt realise) and 2fort as the first map in the cycle in the 3 servers i setup

but respawn times and the general slowness of the game is what TF2 is. as for options, not sure if there is a respawn one...i thought the respawn times and their variation is a part of the gameplay. here's a list of options from mike:

> mp_teams_unbalance_limit
> Teams are unbalanced when one team has this many more players
> than the other team. (0 disables check)
>
> mp_enableroundwaittime
> Enable timers to wait between rounds.
>
> mp_bonusroundtime
> Time after round win until round restarts
>
> mp_restartround
> If non-zero, the current round will restart in the specified
> number of seconds
>
> mp_winlimit
> Max number of rounds one team can win before server changes maps
>
> mp_stalemate_timelimit
> Timelimit (in seconds) of the stalemate round.
>
> mp_autoteambalance
> mp_autoteambalance_delay
> Time after the teams become unbalanced to attempt to switch players.
>
> mp_autoteambalance_warning_delay
> Time after the teams become unbalanced to print a balance warning.
>
> mp_maxrounds
> Max number of rounds to play before server changes maps
>
> I'll be adding these to the VDC Wiki late.
> http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Console_Command_List
>
> -Best Regards,
>  Mike Durand
>  Valve

[barronofhellion]

Originally Posted by 4est

"hell yes!... Dophins make medics great!".

you underestimate the target age group valve has set . they set the standard of the boys and girls around 12-16 and the fact remains, there are thousands of lil kids that love cartoons and dont really care about gameplay because it does not register. otherwise they would have done a tf clone and added more things like new weapons , class, and complicated things like 'more' different map game types ala ctf.. the fact that there commercial spam system that pops up every time you do something to try to sell you some bs game helps there favor too, its effortless for the common gamer , in other words the people that dont actually go looking for mods will never find ff because they have no clue what there doing ... valves insta-installer on download is really simple to use, a un-trained baboon could slobber on the keys and buy a valve game ... and other users have to go uhh ? mod 'drool' whats dat... install 'gurgle' dont under stand... what is C:\ ?!?!?! in the long run the people that dont bitch and wine about ff is because they are used to a constant challenge , where as the tf2 fanpeople only like tf2 because they like easy gaming... i dont expect any retort from people because anybody that is true to what they do could not possibly make any other wording then this true. it is fact anybody that says different is lying

[Dr.Uudge]

yup; i think there's a lot of psychology involved in here too.

i mean even if it turns out to be a bad game, it would be difficult to accept that it was not worth the 45 bucks.

i mean my friends complain that the tf2 has no tf value, and is just another fps game, but then when i ask: so was your 45 bucks worth it, they answer "yeah man, it's not FF, but it's so fun" and then end up joining the ff server that i'm in, in the next 3 minuites

this only confirms my prediction - once FF:
1. gets smoother animation tweaks
2. gets effects/model tweaks
3. overall improvement of coding optimization
4. overal improvement of graphics

people are gonna use FF as the new standard for tf games

(my secret fear is that valve might try to make employees of FF dev team and we might have to purchase FF from valve, which i would not like; i'd buy it if they had their own company, but not from valve )

[barronofhellion]

Originally Posted by Dr.Uudge

(my secret fear is that valve might try to make employees of FF dev team)

id pay for ff , it looks like they spent a lot of time tring to establish what i knew of tf... i liked tf the way it was...in fact most of the things the ff staff have done to ff i dont really care for that much... they are workable so i have enjoyment... but if it was it was called Barronofhellion's_ff id have made it qwtf with a few minor adjustments that tfc had... and then had everything else how looks in ff right now -teleporters though

[tu!]

ide pay for ff too as long i as i knew ff devs. were in control of anything gameplay related. valve can stick to making it run smooth and be pretty.

[SME]

I've been running both FF and TF2 servers, since each was released. I have to say that I am disappointed in TF2 for abandoning the TF roots that it leeches it name from. The lack of grenades and infection is a major slap in the face of what's been TF for a decade.

That said, there are good things about TF2 too. The orangebox netcode is superior to other games/mod servers I've ran. I see lower pings and less BW, compared to FF, for full 16 player servers. It's very smooth. No bhop either. Additionally, I've noticed significally less trash talk on TF2, people are actually acting civilized, for the most part. My TF2 server, so far, has the one, default, MOTD rule; be nice.

[tu!]

Originally Posted by SME

I've been running both FF and TF2 servers, since each was released. I have to say that I am disappointed in TF2 for abandoning the TF roots that it leeches it name from. The lack of grenades and infection is a major slap in the face of what's been TF for a decade.

That said, there are good things about TF2 too. The orangebox netcode is superior to other games/mod servers I've ran. I see lower pings and less BW, compared to FF, for full 16 player servers. It's very smooth. No bhop either. Additionally, I've noticed significally less trash talk on TF2, people are actually acting civilized, for the most part. My TF2 server, so far, has the one, default, MOTD rule; be nice.

suprised u don't like tf2 but aren't u the same guy that say u waiting for some adminmod crap plugin to disable bhop in ff...

tf2's turtle speed gameplay sounds right up ure alley no?!

I'm disappointed in FF. Sniper is completely ruined. The movement for all classes feels mushy. The game is spammier than TFC. SGs are way overpowered, they lock on in 2 nanoseconds and fire at 5000 rounds a minute. My framerate on most maps sucks balls, even though I've got a C2D, 2 gigs of ram, and a 7600GT. The lag is ridiculous. People block doors all the time. The maps are way, way too busy for such a fast paced game. Good luck fixing the mod.

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

Half the bugs make you wonder how they weren't found in beta when they slap you right in the face upon connecting.

As Circ said, it is not just a matter of the bugs not being found. A lot of the beta testers, especially people like Circ, took a lot of time just fooling around with the game trying to find errors, break the game, etc. We found and killed a lot of the bad stuff.

All of the "unresolved" issues listed in the FF bugtracker range from things like the HUD screwing up somehow to the medkit not having an animation. Whether it is a major crash bug or just an animation glitch, the devs at least know what is going on.

Considering that the FF staff has basically been a revolving door, what with people coming and going, I think that they have done a fine job under the circumstances. The devs wanted to beat TF2 and they got out the best product that they could in that timeframe.

So, in short, the beta testers (and devs) did an excellent job of finding the bugs - the problem is that FF did not have the necessary staff to get everything killed in time for release. We could use a couple more people like Aftershock on board to help kill this stuff.

Lest we forget, Imbrifer and the other devs are also working hard on bringing the community more maps in the very near future.

Remember, many of the devs are some of the most prominent people in the Team Fortress community. They know what it feels like to be abandoned with a game that still has a few glaring bugs. (We call that TFC 1.5 around these here parts.) They are surely working diligently on the next patch to get things running more smoothly while simultaneously cranking out more content for the community - all on their own time.

I feel a lot more confident about FF being in our dev's hands than TF2 being in the hands of Valve - I know in my little Engineer heart that they are not going to leave things unfinished when they want to get working on their next blockbuster title.

[Rutabeggar]

Originally Posted by cdotter

I'm disappointed in FF. Sniper is completely ruined. The movement for all classes feels mushy. The game is spammier than TFC. SGs are way overpowered, they lock on in 2 nanoseconds and fire at 5000 rounds a minute. My framerate on most maps sucks balls, even though I've got a C2D, 2 gigs of ram, and a 7600GT. The lag is ridiculous. People block doors all the time. The maps are way, way too busy for such a fast paced game. Good luck fixing the mod.

Opposed to the TF2 SGs that lock in in 3 nanoseconds and only shoot 4500 rounds? Enjoy playing "Incredibles Online: You're the Hero"

Here are the 2 cents of a long time TF fan, for those who care to read.

First and foremost, there will always be opinions on how the TF games "should" be, and "could" be, but for those of us who do not have modding skills, we can only sit back and make those opinions, and unfortunately go as far as bashing those who do take the time to recreate their version of the game.

TF has definitely come a long way since first playing it on Quake 10 or so years ago.. I am sure we can all agree on that. The developer's of FF have made, in my opinion, a near perfect job at recreating their views (and many fans views) of how the TF game is.

After playing FF about 20 minutes after its original release, I can say that the dev's have truely created a great TF experience. Minus the bugs (cause TF2 sure has some as well) the game is alot better then I thought it would be. The movement is near flawless, the physics are superb, the gameplay bring backs alot of memories, and the maps have been done very nicely.

Now, as far as TF2 goes. My opinion about it is straight and to the point. It's amazing. It, too, has surpassed everything I thought it would be and more. It has taken TF and fast-paced shooters to a new level.

As far as sheer game quality goes, I would think its a bit silly to think that an non-profit group of modders can stand up to a developing studio and compete with the recourses that these guys have. As a result, TF2 is a far better quality game. By quality, I mean visuals and finess.

But, getting to my main point, visuals and finess may not be the deciding factor of choosing to play FF or TF2, atleast for me. This is decided by gameplay, and for that, I would pretty much leave at a stalemate.

The minute I began playing TF2, I was already nestalgic (sp) to conc'ing, and grenades in general. I was afraid of it taking away too much of its fast-paced element (which, to me, is the #1 defining characteristic of the game). But I was wrong, it felt very weird playing a Medic without the nades and being a flag runner, or playing a Soldier and not being able to spam frags at bottlenecks, but they managed to do very well in those aspects simply because they gave back in other areas.

For example, the Medic, for the longest time, has been the "new scout" because, in most pub games, scouts were not supported enough to utilize their abilities. TF2 did very well with the Scout. In fact so well, there is absolutely no reason to want to play a Medic for running purposes.

With that said, and now looking back at FF, it has stayed alot more true to the roots of the original games, which is a good thing in many ways. When I began playing FF. I thought to myself about FF having many similarities to TFC, but I wouldn't call it a TFC:S for sure, due to its many tweaks and additions; but compared to TF2, it is alot more truer to TFC then TF2 is.

It all boils down to what you want to play. Personally, after playing the hell out of TF2 for 9+ hours today, I can say that I have found my new TF game that I want to play and get better at. After it feeling weird at first, and me not supporting alot of valve's ideas for the game, I have actually grown to like the approach that the game has taken. I am sure many people have not. This is why I hope FF continues to grow and will not be overshadowed by TF2 *just because* it is a Team Fortress game.

These 2 games are very different and have come a long way to upholding the TF name.

To be honest, if I haven't tried TF2 for another year, 2 years, whatever, I would of been happy playing FF, just as I have been playing TFC for all of these years.

[Noggin]

I agree with the spawning & speed comments but I dont think that FF is better than TF2 or vice versa, theyre 2 very different games with different dynamics.

[newget]

Originally Posted by snips

I've played TF2. Nothing like TFC, really. Disappointed is all I am.

I haven't found all the nuisances in the game, but I've found the biggest to me, respawn time, no bhop, nades. BIG NUISANCES.

In before THEY ARE DIFFERENT GAMES DON'T COMPARE THEM!!1 I can kinda compare them if TF2 is supposed to be a Team Fortress game. ;\

edit:TF2 looks amazing, I can probably start to like it for different reasons, kinda how I like CS:S.

thats because its TF2 not TFC , a faded style of gameplay(movement wise)

[FF|Skyrider]

I think I'll just stick with FF with the main reason because FF is way more closer to TFC than TF2. I wonder why the heck they even called it "Team Fortress" if it has such a distance of the original game. And newget, perhaps it is Team Fortress, but they used the name of the original Team Fortress Classic. So you'd at least expect something simular of TFC in TF2, but you don't.

[summit]

Why do so many people claim TFC is the "original"? I don't have to be a fan to realise it obviously isn't. When people get so used to abusing exploits in game that it becomes a trait, that doesn't mean further iterations have to include the same exploits. I'm confused when I hear people say how it should have been played; I'm curious as to what you think, contrasted with how the original creators feel - surely they have somewhat of an idea as to how their series should play?

Oh and Effex - if I could give you rep I would; solid post void of emotion. Good stuff

[Viper]

You know whats funny? this is the ONLY forum ive read people saying TF2 isnt good or isnt TFC or whatever. Maybe you havent realized that the team didnt want to just copy the old TFC over to Source? And finally create a new game based on something that came from HL1?

Ive seen so many HL2 mods come out and none hold longer then 4 weeks of good amounts of players. I like FF a lot really and i think its one of the best polished free HL2 mods so far but TF2 is just very new, amazing graphics and setup by a professional team at Valve themselves.

So instead of saying TF2 sucks or saying FF is way better, maybe you all should play the games the way they are I for one love TF2 and I think Valve did an amazing job, same with the FF team, but my mind goes to TF2 at this time as it's something new for me.

And one more thing, i think the stats talk for themselves: http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=stats&

[summit]

K so, you're saying that the instant respawn in TFC had nothing to do with how fast game play was...which in turn also suggests that bunny hopping, grenade jumping of any kind had no effect on the pace and therefore the game at all?

I don't remember saying that. The post I quoted was trying to make the claim that they could play other games with the same pace (ala DoDS) and I merely pointed out that the pace doesn't define a game. The follow up post on that was from "you're wrong" (mature, no?).

I have no doubt that the speed is important, but that's not what makes games. Pace is simply a feature built around an idea.

Beast_Within: solid points, but perhaps we have different interpretations here. I'm not entirely sure how you can make the claim TF2 is "too" slow; surely you can't base a TF formula on TFC alone? It's slower, I'm not trying to argue it isn't; but that doesn't mean it isn't a "TF" game - it just might mean it isn't one you like

I don't think the devs got things completely wrong, but I do agree they may have overlooked things - that's why software is tested and why we've been given a large-scale beta. Things like this *do* get changed, regardless of what other melodramatic people would have you believe. Traditionally, Valve have been pretty good with that - look at the talk behind the major gameplay changes DODS will see (after Ep2 development wraps up).

So to argue nothing will change in a beta period is a pretty weak argument - it's a fundamental part of software development.

Greenmarine: thanks mate! I don't understand that affiliation TF2 has with the younger audience, just because of its cartoony look. If anything, I could make the same claim based purely on the maturity behind some of the posts on this board. Do I? No - that wouldn't be a smart assessment.

Regarding the respawn timer: I think they should just make it toggleable; whilst I don't always get the 15 second waits, they're annoying when I do. Sure it's for balance reasons, but I wouldn't mind having it adjustable.

I'm not bashing opinions, I'm arguing points people bring up. That's what forums are here for, and presumably why these threads have been started. If you guys just want to go around hi-fiving each other flaming the game, that's fine - I'm happy to argue ignorant points. If the admins think I've done something wrong, then I'm happy to stop - but honestly, it's just discussion.

Don't on one hand complain because I'm objecting, and then argue that my point is wrong. I'm not being unreasonable, and I'm not biased. I think the difference is I don't have the bias towards TFC, so don't be offended when I enjoy TF2 or support it. Like I said I'm just the same with FF when people call you elitests etc. or generalize about FF players on steam forums.

[Viper]

TF2 is not slow at all..... it's awesome the way it is and the player numbers tell you the same thing so far for a beta. And imo i think the respawn timer is good for this game.