Sniper: Removal from CTF maps? - Page 10

v3rtigo · 03-19-2008, 09:21 AM

The TFC sniper was fine for pubs and sniper leagues, so if he doesn't need to be leaguable, then what's the problem?

Credge · 03-19-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

The TFC sniper was fine for pubs and sniper leagues, so if he doesn't need to be leaguable, then what's the problem?

The fact that balance comes from the top level and then tinkles its way down.

There's also the fact that the only reason to go sniper ever would be in AVD to take out an SG in one of a few places, in which case the player will then switch back to whatever class he was and move the flag up/cap it.

There's no real point to having a permanent sniper, and this is kind of the issue. At the very least the spy has a use that is long term even if the spy isn't being played. That use is paranoia. A sniper does not induce paranoia, it induces annoyance.

You can make the sniper a viable choice in league play and have him retain the same mechanics. How you'd do this is to have him have the ability to play inside the base. Isn't this something that the dev team was working towards anyway?

The best way to do this would be to give him the ability to anticipate incoming enemy players with accuracy.

Snipers, in real life, have two roles:

1. Recon.
2. Target elimination and support.

We currently have #2. He needs #1.

He needs this in base.

Give him a buildable based on cells (or give him 5 of them) that he can have multiple of that act as motion detectors that does not discriminate between teams. It detects any, and everyone that passes by. When it detects them, it lets out a beeping that can be heard from a certain distance away, or, radiotags them for 15 seconds.

The kicker of it all is that the sniper has to remain a certain distance from the detectors for them to work.

caesium · 03-19-2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Too much of this thread has been trying to focus on making him leaguable, though.

but by definition league players will use the best classes/strats that help their team win as much as possible. therefore if we evolve the sniper to make him a valid choice in league play then by definition a sniper on a public server could arguably be the best class/strat to use to help your team win as much as possible in certain scenarios. this is very different from the current situation where a sniper is [for all intents and purposes] never the best class/strat to use to help your team win as much as possible.

this might sound odd to many ppl, but it doesn't actually matter whether or not in reality choosing sniper is the best class/strat for the current scenario - the important point is that it could be. this is what frustrates some of the more experienced players atm when there are snipers on their team: by playing sniper you will not be helping your team nearly as much (on average [over player skill and time]) as if you switched to any other class. it doesn't matter if the person playing sniper is completely rubbish at all the other classes - i'd so so much rather have a clueless engy/demo/sol/etc trying to defend with me than an amazing sniper, because then at least i can try to teach/help him and there's a much higher chance that he'll get better at a class, get a glimpse at what makes FF's gameplay unique and awesome and want to come back for more.

solution: make sniper arguably the best class/strat for regularly occuring scenarios, while hopefully maintaining everything we loved about him in TFC. beta testers pls read my post in the beta forum and give comments!

Mudfrog · 03-19-2008, 01:34 PM

Most everyone in league play could care less about the sniper so lets take it back to 1.1 and leave him alone. We all know even if he does get changed nobody is going to take the initiative to use him during a clan match. I've played since 99 and I've never once seen a sniper in league play and I highly doubt that will ever change. So at least let us enjoy him in the pubs.. that is if people would quit their crying about getting snipped. Because that in itself is just plain ridiculous

caesium · 03-19-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudfrog

We all know even if he does get changed nobody is going to take the initiative to use him during a clan match.

i don't mean to be rude, but you're very wrong. if sniper was turned into an effective class then ofc clans would use him. for example, how do you know my suggested changes aren't to give him 1000h/a, mega speed, and a machine-gun rocket launcher with infinite ammo? (they're not btw, lol). anyway, my point is if he's better than other classes at whatever task the team needs doing then ofc he will be used by clans - maybe just by the non-braindead clans at first, but if they see sniper owning then others will soon try using it too if it's better.

SmellyCat · 03-19-2008, 02:31 PM

I was actually thinking making the sniper less sniper would possibly be a good thing. I mean... look at the medic. With some imagination I bet he could be made into a useful class (rather than just being a tool to score whore). The problem with league play is that people don't actually want to see the class changed but will still complain that it's not a viable class. A complete revamp would be needed, in my opinion, which I think would also be kinda cool.

I'm aware that he's pretty nasty in pubs but I've always disliked the sniper class (from TFC). Dying to one always feels really 'un-fun' and not in the spirit of the game!

Credge · 03-19-2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudfrog

Most everyone in league play could care less about the sniper so lets take it back to 1.1 and leave him alone. We all know even if he does get changed nobody is going to take the initiative to use him during a clan match. I've played since 99 and I've never once seen a sniper in league play and I highly doubt that will ever change. So at least let us enjoy him in the pubs.. that is if people would quit their crying about getting snipped. Because that in itself is just plain ridiculous

The reason everyone in league play could care less about the sniper is because, currently, he's useless.

Give him a use and you'll create a care.

Mudfrog · 03-19-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caesium

i don't mean to be rude, but you're very wrong. if sniper was turned into an effective class then ofc clans would use him. for example, how do you know my suggested changes aren't to give him 1000h/a, mega speed, and a machine-gun rocket launcher with infinite ammo? (they're not btw, lol). anyway, my point is if he's better than other classes at whatever task the team needs doing then ofc he will be used by clans - maybe just by the non-braindead clans at first, but if they see sniper owning then others will soon try using it too if it's better.

But I highly doubt the dev's are going to make him into a super class.. if they do then by all means, but I'm one of the few who thinks the sniper class was great the way it was and that was the way he was meant to be played.

v3rtigo · 03-19-2008, 03:40 PM

Pretty much, yeah. The sniper leagues made up for the fact that snipers weren't used in CTF style matches and the class was fine in pubs. I'm sure something similar will happen if he stays true to his TFC counterpart, or close to it anyway.

caesium · 03-19-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudfrog

But I highly doubt the dev's are going to make him into a super class.. if they do then by all means, but I'm one of the few who thinks the sniper class was great the way it was and that was the way he was meant to be played.

i don't mean that he needs to be a super class to get used by clans, he just has to be able to help his team in certain ways better than the other classes. as for what the offical devs as a whole are thinking and want to do i don't know exactly, but as soon as i have the time i'm going to ask if i can have a go at coding my suggested sniper solution and test it out in the beta.

dys · 03-19-2008, 04:03 PM

As it is there are far too many crybabies in pubs about people playing sniper. The community is starting to get it's share of leetists.

myersjr · 03-19-2008, 04:33 PM

I would say make him very similar to what he was in tfc..people still love the tfc version of the sniper. As we all know, people are still playing it and still loving it. Unless they get owned by one, then, its on..the crying begins..

SSCUJO · 03-19-2008, 05:34 PM

hmm, why not give the sniper the ability to lock on to targets, when a shot is fully charged, they push a button and they have an aimbot for 2 seconds... that will make a sniper useful in the flag room.

that will get him some use in league play...

chilledsanity · 03-20-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

hmm, why not give the sniper the ability to lock on to targets, when a shot is fully charged, they push a button and they have an aimbot for 2 seconds... that will make a sniper useful in the flag room.

that will get him some use in league play...

I think that would turn pub servers into instagib ones.

v3rtigo · 03-20-2008, 12:30 PM

How about only being able to lock on to (radio)tagged players. Means you'd have to shoot them once first.

Mudfrog · 03-20-2008, 01:07 PM

Since snipers in real life are based on stealth I think they should be able to cloak like a spy does, when he shoots the cloak unarms just like the spy.

v3rtigo · 03-20-2008, 01:11 PM

Maybe just having a larger bullet alone will help.

SmellyCat · 03-20-2008, 02:08 PM

I don't think a base on real life is the way forward for any class in a game such a Team Fortress. Imo, a change needs to be thought about to improve usability of the sniper in league play whilst maintaining it being fun to play in publics.

reaper18 · 03-20-2008, 04:09 PM

Why not add some realism to it? Add a whole new perspective to the sniper class?
How about bullet delay?
Most people don't realize because of these games today, but when you fire a gun in real life, there is a delay. Its miniscule at close range, but when you start getting further away, it starts getting longer, and according to the load of the bullet (powder) and the muzzle, and wether its even rifled, will not gaurentee a dead on shot.
How bout a slight delay at close range, and it increases with range? this would make people have to think more than point and shoot. Granted theres a lot more going on, it would help the sniper become even more of a skillbased class.
Just throwing this out there

SSCUJO · 03-20-2008, 04:18 PM

how would a bullet delay return a sniper to usefullness in pubs, and make the sniper usefull in clan matches?

View Poll Results: Should the sniper be banned from CTF maps?
Yes, the devs should remove the sniper class from CTF style maps altogether.	17	16.67%
No, server admins should be the ones to make that decision.	21	20.59%
No, the sniper class should stay exactly as is.	23	22.55%
No, the sniper class should try to be improved by the devs to allow him to take on a better roll.	41	40.20%
Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll

03-19-2008, 09:21 AM	#181
v3rtigo Lock 'n Loll! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: 2fort Class/Position: Scout, Spy, Sniper Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The TFC sniper was fine for pubs and sniper leagues, so if he doesn't need to be leaguable, then what's the problem?

03-19-2008, 01:34 PM	#184
Mudfrog Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Virginia Class/Position: D - Sniper, Demo, Soldier Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Most everyone in league play could care less about the sniper so lets take it back to 1.1 and leave him alone. We all know even if he does get changed nobody is going to take the initiative to use him during a clan match. I've played since 99 and I've never once seen a sniper in league play and I highly doubt that will ever change. So at least let us enjoy him in the pubs.. that is if people would quit their crying about getting snipped. Because that in itself is just plain ridiculous

03-19-2008, 02:31 PM	#186
SmellyCat Darknight Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: England Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I was actually thinking making the sniper less sniper would possibly be a good thing. I mean... look at the medic. With some imagination I bet he could be made into a useful class (rather than just being a tool to score whore). The problem with league play is that people don't actually want to see the class changed but will still complain that it's not a viable class. A complete revamp would be needed, in my opinion, which I think would also be kinda cool. I'm aware that he's pretty nasty in pubs but I've always disliked the sniper class (from TFC). Dying to one always feels really 'un-fun' and not in the spirit of the game!

03-19-2008, 03:40 PM	#189
v3rtigo Lock 'n Loll! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: 2fort Class/Position: Scout, Spy, Sniper Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Pretty much, yeah. The sniper leagues made up for the fact that snipers weren't used in CTF style matches and the class was fine in pubs. I'm sure something similar will happen if he stays true to his TFC counterpart, or close to it anyway.

03-19-2008, 04:03 PM	#191
dys I am the nip to your bud. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	As it is there are far too many crybabies in pubs about people playing sniper. The community is starting to get it's share of leetists.

03-19-2008, 04:33 PM	#192
myersjr Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I would say make him very similar to what he was in tfc..people still love the tfc version of the sniper. As we all know, people are still playing it and still loving it. Unless they get owned by one, then, its on..the crying begins..

03-19-2008, 05:34 PM	#193
SSCUJO Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	hmm, why not give the sniper the ability to lock on to targets, when a shot is fully charged, they push a button and they have an aimbot for 2 seconds... that will make a sniper useful in the flag room. that will get him some use in league play...

03-20-2008, 12:30 PM	#195
v3rtigo Lock 'n Loll! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: 2fort Class/Position: Scout, Spy, Sniper Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	How about only being able to lock on to (radio)tagged players. Means you'd have to shoot them once first.

03-20-2008, 01:07 PM	#196
Mudfrog Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Virginia Class/Position: D - Sniper, Demo, Soldier Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Since snipers in real life are based on stealth I think they should be able to cloak like a spy does, when he shoots the cloak unarms just like the spy.

03-20-2008, 01:11 PM	#197
v3rtigo Lock 'n Loll! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: 2fort Class/Position: Scout, Spy, Sniper Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Maybe just having a larger bullet alone will help.

03-20-2008, 02:08 PM	#198
SmellyCat Darknight Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: England Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I don't think a base on real life is the way forward for any class in a game such a Team Fortress. Imo, a change needs to be thought about to improve usability of the sniper in league play whilst maintaining it being fun to play in publics.

03-20-2008, 04:09 PM	#199
reaper18 sKeeD D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Class/Position: Scout, Demo, Solly Gametype: Any Posts Rated Helpful 21 Times	Why not add some realism to it? Add a whole new perspective to the sniper class? How about bullet delay? Most people don't realize because of these games today, but when you fire a gun in real life, there is a delay. Its miniscule at close range, but when you start getting further away, it starts getting longer, and according to the load of the bullet (powder) and the muzzle, and wether its even rifled, will not gaurentee a dead on shot. How bout a slight delay at close range, and it increases with range? this would make people have to think more than point and shoot. Granted theres a lot more going on, it would help the sniper become even more of a skillbased class. Just throwing this out there

03-20-2008, 04:18 PM	#200
SSCUJO Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	how would a bullet delay return a sniper to usefullness in pubs, and make the sniper usefull in clan matches?

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