Socialized Healthcare

[SizeableSSonic]

Originally Posted by Innoc

I think there is much we would probably disagree on relative to the interpretation of original intent. As far as this thread goes perhaps you might be able to see why I was inferring a liberal position on your part? You mention rewriting the Constitution in a thread about Socialized Healthcare. Were you meaning to associate those two things? If so does that mean you believe that the Gov't should force, through economic penalty/punishment, the people to procure health insurance whether they want to or not?

As to original intent and the broader, but related, subject matter...that's probably decent fodder for a different thread.

First, I posted about the Constitution because some talk of it came about it in this thread, concerning the mandate, I believe.

As for whether or not the Federal Government is allowed to force people to buy something under the Constitution, well, that's up in the air, as to my knowledge, the Constitution does not say yes or no on the matter.

I do, however, believe that the individual mandate is a good idea, and so did some Republicans.

Why? Well, for one thing, if somebody gets really sick without any warning, they go to the emergency room. Guess who has to pay for the visit if they don't have insurance? Taxpayers. The mandate forces people to take some responsibility for themselves, so we don't have to cover their medical expenses.

Do I think that the government should force me to buy a car, a TV, or a banana? No. Do I believe it should require me to purchase health insurance? Yes, I do, because if I don't, it's irresponsible towards both myself and other people. People are required to have car insurance for the same exact reasons. I don't see conservatives in a furor over that.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by SizeableSSonic

First, I posted about the Constitution because some talk of it came about it in this thread, concerning the mandate, I believe.

As for whether or not the Federal Government is allowed to force people to buy something under the Constitution, well, that's up in the air, as to my knowledge, the Constitution does not say yes or no on the matter.

I do, however, believe that the individual mandate is a good idea, and so did some Republicans.

Why? Well, for one thing, if somebody gets really sick without any warning, they go to the emergency room. Guess who has to pay for the visit if they don't have insurance? Taxpayers. The mandate forces people to take some responsibility for themselves, so we don't have to cover their medical expenses.

Do I think that the government should force me to buy a car, a TV, or a banana? No. Do I believe it should require me to purchase health insurance? Yes, I do, because if I don't, it's irresponsible towards both myself and other people. People are required to have car insurance for the same exact reasons. I don't see conservatives in a furor over that.

I don't think you can equate car and health insurance. To start no form of insurance is required by the Constitution. Insurance mandates occur at the state level where it belongs. Car Insurance exists almost entirely to address personal and direct liability you would have to others for your actions...whether accidental or deliberate. Health Insurance exists entirely for your direct use. They aren't the same.

Do you believe that the people who aren't paying the way for their healthcare now are going to be forced to do it by this law? I disagree. The rest of the public is STILL going to be paying for their health care. Whether through subsidizing that expense by stealing money from others or simple carrying on now as they always have...the rest of us will still be carrying their burden.

I do not believe that the Constitution is outdated. I believe that as it is written and amended it is a wonderfully fair and righteous framework for existence in the US. I think things would be much better if it were actually adhered to by the Federal Government. The Fed being prohibited from infringing on the rights to protected speech, faith, assembly, petition the Fed for Redress of Grievance, right to defense (bear arms) are great elements of that!. Mandatory purchase of anything by the People is not something that belongs in the Constitution nor should it be within the purview of the Fed. That includes Health Insurance.

[Lost]

Originally Posted by Innoc

As to original intent and the broader, but related, subject matter...that's probably decent fodder for a different thread.

Goddamitt Innoc, you're not supposed to actually think these things out.

I'd like to see our congressmen and women put to questions like these, see if they come out spouting party-based rhetoric or if they can actually provide thoughtful and supported answers.

[SizeableSSonic]

Originally Posted by Innoc

I don't think you can equate car and health insurance. To start no form of insurance is required by the Constitution. Insurance mandates occur at the state level where it belongs. Car Insurance exists almost entirely to address personal and direct liability you would have to others for your actions...whether accidental or deliberate. Health Insurance exists entirely for your direct use. They aren't the same.

You completely ignored what I said. If you get sick, and you do not have health insurance, and make a visit to the emergency room, it is payed for by tax payers.

You even said that the car insurance mandate belongs at the state level. whether it is the state or federal level, it is still the government. What's the difference? You're still mandated to get insurance.

Do you believe that the people who aren't paying the way for their healthcare now are going to be forced to do it by this law? I disagree. The rest of the public is STILL going to be paying for their health care. Whether through subsidizing that expense by stealing money from others or simple carrying on now as they always have...the rest of us will still be carrying their burden.

You do realize that there are a ton of people in their twenties who could afford insurance but choose not too buy it because they think they do not need it? Now they will have to buy it. Although, now that I mention it, people such as my self will soon be allowed to stay on their parents insurance until they are twenty six. Do you think that is a bad idea, too?

I do not believe that the Constitution is outdated. I believe that as it is written and amended it is a wonderfully fair and righteous framework for existence in the US. I think things would be much better if it were actually adhered to by the Federal Government. The Fed being prohibited from infringing on the rights to protected speech, faith, assembly, petition the Fed for Redress of Grievance, right to defense (bear arms) are great elements of that!. Mandatory purchase of anything by the People is not something that belongs in the Constitution nor should it be within the purview of the Fed. That includes Health Insurance.

When did I mention freedom of speech? When did I mention the right the bear arms? I believe that the Bill of Rights is one of the few things in the Constitution that should remain as it is. I believe that the Constitution is outdated in it's definition of the federal government's powers, not in the rights of a citizen. I believe you have the right to speak against this health care bill, and I have just as much a right to be for it (although some things do irk me). I believe that a person does have a right to defend themselves, with armed force if necessary. I'm talking more about what the federal government can and can't do, not the citizen. Don't try to change the debate.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by SizeableSSonic

You completely ignored what I said. If you get sick, and you do not have health insurance, and make a visit to the emergency room, it is payed for by tax payers.

You even said that the car insurance mandate belongs at the state level. whether it is the state or federal level, it is still the government. What's the difference? You're still mandated to get insurance.


You do realize that there are a ton of people in their twenties who could afford insurance but choose not too buy it because they think they do not need it? Now they will have to buy it. Although, now that I mention it, people such as my self will soon be allowed to stay on their parents insurance until they are twenty six. Do you think that is a bad idea, too?


When did I mention freedom of speech? When did I mention the right the bear arms? I believe that the Bill of Rights is one of the few things in the Constitution that should remain as it is. I believe that the Constitution is outdated in it's definition of the federal government's powers, not in the rights of a citizen. I believe you have the right to speak against this health care bill, and I have just as much a right to be for it (although some things do irk me). I believe that a person does have a right to defend themselves, with armed force if necessary. I'm talking more about what the federal government can and can't do, not the citizen. Don't try to change the debate.

I don't believe your point on "who pays" or "how" was ignored by me. I'm responding uniformly that I don't think its relevant as you're talking about something that is not within the authority delegated to the Fed. This seems to be something you keep missing...or at least that's what I infer from your posts. That distinction between Fed and State is huge and its going to be right in the middle of the legal war that is going to follow in the wake of this passing.

Did I try to change the subject? No, I did not. Reread my post. I was giving you an example of the authority delegated to the Fed to contrast it against this very wrong action the Fed has taken despite the limits set by the Constitution.

I'm curious, do you live in the US?

[Rutabeggar]

The Constitution was written so that 200 years later it can still be applicable to legal issues today. This is why Supreme Court Justices are able to issue opinions as to their interpretation of the Constitution. While political thought has shifted greatly since the Constitution became the law of land, its 13 pages are still applicable today because the Founders had the foresight to understand that political thought would shift.

As for Obama Care, I'm not sure it can ever be repealed. You see, we as Americans have a great sense of entitlement, and once we have something, we generally don't like it snatched away from us. It's unfortunate the amount of disinformation that flowed out of the White House and from pundits. It's quite a bit more unfortunate that this bill will just continue to poison the American people against one another. It's OK though, we have free health care now...right?

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Rutabeggar

The Constitution was written so that 200 years later it can still be applicable to legal issues today. This is why Supreme Court Justices are able to issue opinions as to their interpretation of the Constitution. While political thought has shifted greatly since the Constitution became the law of land, its 13 pages are still applicable today because the Founders had the foresight to understand that political thought would shift.

As for Obama Care, I'm not sure it can ever be repealed. You see, we as Americans have a great sense of entitlement, and once we have something, we generally don't like it snatched away from us. It's unfortunate the amount of disinformation that flowed out of the White House and from pundits. It's quite a bit more unfortunate that this bill will just continue to poison the American people against one another. It's OK though, we have free health care now...right?

I firmly believe that this healthcare shitheap is one more example of the "largesse" spoken of long ago that will cause our republic to fail and collapse. You eventually run out of "other people's money" to steal for such thing. Is it too soon to be sick of Obama's bread and circuses?

[Rutabeggar]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100423/...care_law_costs

Horray....

[stray kitten]

Originally Posted by Innoc

I firmly believe that this healthcare shitheap is one more example of the "largesse" spoken of long ago that will cause our republic to fail and collapse. You eventually run out of "other people's money" to steal for such thing. Is it too soon to be sick of Obama's bread and circuses?

today:

Iceland
Greece
Portugal

yesterday:

Soviet Russia
Maoist China

...