Snipers! They don't belong.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Nezumi

Orly?

Every other class does fine on these large maps. Wonder why? HM.

[xks]

Originally Posted by Bridget

It's not a level design issue. It's the Sniper.

The Sniper is barely ok on a large map like Aardvark.

The great majority of the Snipers time is spent worrying about/focusing on the opposing Sniper and not on your precious bunnyhopping/concing through mid.

You usually have 10-20 seconds of 'proper' Sniping once you've killed the opposing Sniper. Of course, you don't know how long you have or where he'll come at you next and the wisest move is to change your position so he doesn't know where you are. The trouble with this is, you aren't actually Sniping anymore, you're running until your window of opportunity to do some real Sniping is over.

The changes I highlighted would make the Sniper a more interesting and dynamic class, certainly just reversing the charge would work wonders for it. With the increased mobility the Sniper will see, you should find less Snipers permanently stuck to the edge of a restock room as they are hopelessly doomed if they go anywhere else at the moment (and still will be really).

Unfortunately having to face off against 'other' Snipers increases the need and frequency at which a Sniper is in and around the restock rooms. It's such a disadvantage to stand anywhere else, especially if facing a Sniper on the opposing team.

I'd say restock rooms and restock related things are central to many problems in FF.

[GenghisTron]

I'm thoroughly convinced xks is a troll. Well played sir, well played.

[Ventry(Leo Wainker)]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

I'm thoroughly convinced xks is a troll. Well played sir, well played.

I'm thoroughly convinced that Bridget and GenghisTron are trying to "Bully" everyone into seeing things their way.

Not gonna happen.

This is a "point of view" argument based upon opinion only and opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one and most of them stink.

As far as I can see there is just as many people who don't have a problem with the sniper as those who do.

This "discussion" is now a waste of time.
What will be will be.
Bye now going to play sniper.

[Bridget]

Bye now, going to play a class that actually plays Fortress Forever.

[xks]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

I'm thoroughly convinced xks is a troll. Well played sir, well played.

In that case I'm starting to be convinced you aren't that smart

[mervaka]

okay, i think this thread has run its course, many times over. time to lock?

[Ventry(Leo Wainker)]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Bye now, going to play a class that actually plays Fortress Forever.

There's my point. I'm not trying to stop you playing the game with whatever class you want.
However that is what you are doing and you don't like it because you don't have the full support of the player base.

mervaka:
Time to lock for sure. Although you can let Bridget have another say if he feels it necessary.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by mervaka

okay, i think this thread has run its course, many times over. time to lock?

please

[Eon Seig]

Many of the core issues that this thread was started on are completely valid, and I agree that Sniper is not a fun class to play against and usually is not fun to play as unless the game is Hunted, but now it's just turned into a horrendous shitstorm of cry some more. I approve of a lock.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

I'm thoroughly convinced that Bridget and GenghisTron are trying to "Bully" everyone into seeing things their way.

Not gonna happen.

This is a "point of view" argument based upon opinion only and opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one and most of them stink.

That's where you're wrong. Also, it's not just 'Bridget and GenghisTron', it's a multitude of people, including multiple developers--who all see the sniper as broken, or semi-broken.

Also, we're not 'bullying' people, we're using well-reasoned arguments steeped in empiricism, this isn't as simple as 'LOLOL THATS UR OPINION', because it's not an 'opinion' that snipers have an unfair advantage in this game. It's verifiable fact, and it can be reproduced as many times needed to prove the point.

There's a difference between opinion, and something that can be PROVED, and is an objective fact.

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

As far as I can see there is just as many people who don't have a problem with the sniper as those who do.

Prove it.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by xks

In that case I'm starting to be convinced you aren't that smart

Says the guy that says the most unbalanced class in the game needs to buffed. Yea, right. As for your suggestion to allow snipers to 'pre-charge' their shots--LMFAO. What a joke. You realize how overpowered that would be? Probably not, since you think the sniper is underpowered.

Gotta love the internet.

[xks]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Says the guy that says the most unbalanced class in the game needs to buffed. Yea, right. As for your suggestion to allow snipers to 'pre-charge' their shots--LMFAO. What a joke. You realize how overpowered that would be? Probably not, since you think the sniper is underpowered.

Gotta love the internet.

Is the Sniper used in competitive play?

No.

Why not?

Because it's not as good as the other classes.

Is the Sniper capable of defending the flag better than other classes?

No.

Why not?

Because it's weak, immobile and requires a lot of aiming skill to kill your average attacker.

The Sniper is excellent at medium-long ranges, undisturbed on large maps - providing you can hit with regularity.

In all other situations, another class is better than the Sniper.

If the Sniper was overpowered as you say, it would be used regularly in competitive play.

[Raynian]

XKS, you're looking the wrong way.

It doesn't matter if the sniper kills a scout three out of four times outside his spawn on destroy, because when the shit gets real - aka when the scout is in the flag room - the sniper can not help his team out when they need it most.

THIS IS FINE BECAUSE WE DO NOT NEED PERFECT CLASS EQUIVALENCY IN A COMPETITIVE STYLE GAME. QUIT BITCHING ABOUT WANTING YOUR FAVORITE CLASS IN PICKUPS. THERE ARE STILL SEVEN VASTLY DIFFERENT CLASSES, EXCLUDING SNIPER AND PYRO.

Pub players want more immediate gratification for their actions. Getting headshot as soon as you leave your base 75% of the time is anything BUT fun. It might be a rush for the sniper, but the snipee gets pissed. And there's not much he can do.

Gwars, you never responded to most of my post. C&P time!
--------------------------------------------------------

Just because something is unique does not mean it fits. In a way, every other class is unique - like you've said! - but they're also very similar in terms of engagement, interaction. Soldiers can shoot rockets, but it's really no different from using a shotty or a pipe - works well at close range, decently at medium, and not at all once you get far away.

However! For the sake of argument, I'll pretend like I agree that having a long range attack is fine for this paragraph. If the sniper was just that, a sniper, who really IS helpless when an enemy gets all up in his face, then I wouldn't have as much an issue. But that's not the case. The sniper is just as efficient at killing enemies that are near him, as he is at long distance. Let me give some examples. Apologies for the shitty "template".

DM Effectiveness (1-10)
----------------
Class Long Medium Short
Scout 1 1 3
Medic 2 4 7
Demoman* 2* 4* 9
HWG 2 3 8 (he sucks too much for 9/10)
Sniper 8 8 9

*Demoman have pipes, obviously. This is fine, though, because there are ways to deal with pipes!

Rockets will not hit at long range. Shotties will do maybe 3 damage. Nails are a joke. The sniper rifle, which is a hitscan weapon, will do a -minimum- of 45 damage (compare this to the sshotty, which will do about equivalent damage at close range). Charging will quickly put it up. Headshots do double. A mid-charged headshot will gib anyone except for soldiers and heavies, but one more hit will do the job! And this is still from across the entire map.

But we've discussed this! Of course we have, so let me get to why I rated the sniper a 9 at close range. First off, realize that comparatively, he's not at as much an advantage - 9v7 against medics, compared to 8v2 before. But he's still ahead of them.

Why? He keeps the sniper rifle, which is just as strong as it is when he's aiming across the map. Even a low-charge headshot will nearly kill a medic, which you can then finish off with a grenade (which you conveniently can carry four of) or couple of AR bursts. And you can shoot the sniper rifle about twice a second! That's almost as fast as the sshotty. The only downside is that you have to stop while firing, but with how easy it is to stop in place in FF, that's not as much of an issue as it should be. And you can charge up, don't forget! So when that pesky soldier or medic shows his head, slug him. It's easier to aim that close, too!

Another thing he has going for him is his ridiculously fast run speed. 300 base? That's only twenty slower than the medic. Faster than any other class that would be juking the sniper. (Plus legshots!) When someone's on him, he can just whip out his AR or nailgun and dance back to spawn. That's really goddamn frustrating, by the way, trying to deal with a sniper who just sits outside spawn.

He's also got about 130 total hit points, when you factor in armor (I realize that not all the armor will be "used" by the time the sniper is dead). Not much? Well, sure, comparatively, but it's enough to soak up a nearby grenade and a sshotty. Or a couple of rockets. If the sniper gets a preemptive shot on a medic or demo, he'll be equal or ahead of them on health and can just AR them.

So this entire section, what was the point of it? Well, see, each class is unique. I fully agree with you! But each other class, while different, follows the general principle of "weak at long range, decent mid, stronger up close" (barring scout, of course). If the sniper were fine, he'd be "strong long, weak close". Or vice versa. Having the sniper be the best at all ranges does not work.

See, there are ways around other classes. If a demo is playing yard, it's not too tough to get past him. He will not be killing nearly as many people as a sniper would. When he dies, he needs time to get back into "position" (in this case, the yard for his dickery). Plus, even WITHOUT bhopping or concing, a couple of newbs would be able to split up and be able to get into the base, or juke him together and still get through the yard.

A sniper can just peg them both. Even if they do make it past him, his defense has a wallhack on those players, not to forget the damage from the slugs.

What about that soldier who's really good at guarding a choke? Well, simple. Pick a tougher O class, like a medic or soldier, and take him down. This is a great example to point out, because you're overcoming someone and working towards the objective - capturing the flag! Can't get past him? Look for other ways around the base, nearly all maps have divergences once you get past the yard.

But not many maps have multiple ways through a yard, or have a "choke" (really more of a large open area at the end, like redgiant) where snipers congregate. Take 2fort. The yard's right there for everyone to see. There's the water, sure! But if an enemy sniper is making you use the water, he's making you take three times as long to get into the enemy base. Mission accomplished. It's ridiculous.

What about having someone on sniper duty? Well, usually it takes several people to quell the sniper threat. And if you have people focusing on just the snipers, then they're not playing the game it's meant to be played. It might be fun for the occasional person to spend a while hunting snipers, but it slows gameplay down. And smart snipers will retreat to the inside of their base, such as the top of the ramp on aardvark or the batts/fr in well, causing a DvDfest. Whatever happens, it stagnates the game.

The sniper rifle is a hitscan weapon with a minimum power of 45, quickly ups, doubles on headshot, has crippling and radiotag, and no cone of fire (aim variance). If you're speed sniping, you can fire one shot per two single shotties, or about two shots per three super shotties. Sure, if you're tapping people with the single shotty (better at long range) long distance for three damage, you'll eventually kill them. It'll only take you about one hundred shells to kill a soldier. A sniper can take his head off with three well placed shots, or just one that has medium charge. "A little faster" is a bit of an understatement.

Also see; above point on how sniper can also work well at close range.

If enemies are camping your spawn, all it takes is a MIRV or EMP to clear them out. Without a respawn time, you can just rush the doors until you kill them. The campers won't be back until they've crossed the yard again - and if they're the classes that actually COULD spawn camp, it'll take some time for that to happen.

For most maps, there's only one way through the yard, unless you take twice/threefold the time using some exotic scenic route (the water). Okay, a sniper won't kill you every time. But a sniper is a lot more of a threat than a spawn camper is.

See the full post here!
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=497

[Elmo]

'TOP'

current:
it's overpowered - at long/unlimited range
it's underpowered - close range
doesn't fit in with classes

argument: make close range better = improve 'AR' slot

argument: then too powerful over all, still has long range. nerf long range

*fits in with classes*

argument: no longer a sniper, you've killed sniper

argument: give him long range power

argument: then too powerful over all, better nerf the short range

GOTO 'TOP'

closing the thread. We'll deal with it as we see fit later down the line. This is going nowhere...