ffpl 2v2/4v4 champs - Page 2

xks · 04-01-2009, 03:25 AM

I think everyone makes too much of this latency thing, it's perfectly possible for both sides to get similar average pings on servers both sides of the atlantic. The difficulty arrives when some of the American players are West Coast, that screws everything up usually.

At the end of the game you wont have won/lost because of a 10ms latency difference so it's best to just play and enjoy.

As for my participation in the NA FF scene, obviously I don't participate since I'm from Europe, but then I don't currently participate in European FF either

I'm sure there is rivalry but we don't see enough of it on this forum.

**squeek.** · 04-01-2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xks

I'm sure there is rivalry but we don't see enough of it on this forum.

Thems called active moderators. There has been plenty of it, it's just hidden.

Hammock · 04-01-2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xks

At the end of the game you wont have won/lost because of a 10ms latency difference so it's best to just play and enjoy.

I saw the pics for the openfire match, gator went from 18 to 139 ping. That's not a difference of 10. Most of the goodfellas rarely ever play with over 60 ping. Having their latencey double makes a difference. Just like it makes a difference for the EU guys too I'm sure. I'm not making excuses for either side, it just would be really awesome from a spectators point of view to see a completely balanced game where every side is playing with their accustomed ping.

xks · 04-01-2009, 05:03 PM

The point is everyone has to deal with an increased latency, those that live on the West Coast of America or in Eastern Europe will suffer the worst, that's just how it is.

If Gator was as good as he seems to think he is he would have dealt just fine with the latency problem.

Stability and consistency are the most important parts of a connection, the rest is just learning to time your shooting differently, although it's far less of an issue in Source than it is in Quake.

If it's smooth I can play at about 80 or 90% of my ability at 130ms even though I'm used to 5-15ms on UK servers.

Hammock · 04-01-2009, 05:17 PM

When you don't care to play or practice on high latencey servers then no, you're not prepared for it one bit. It takes time to learn how to play in that environment, and when you don't do it at all the 2x30 minute rounds is not exactly the best time to "learn how to adjust your timing" as you say. It would be another story if they actually took time out for a couple weeks to play with 150ping but they don't do that, they play on the pickup servers with 60 or less ping almost exclusivley.

To think someone can go from 20 ping to 140 ping and instantly play just as well as before is just plain ignorant.

A group of us (not all of the same clan) scrimmed a bunch of EU guys (I think they were all of the same clan too), on destroy. One of our members doesn't do pickups, and never does offense...like ever.

The EU guys only beat us by 2. And our team fully agreed that our only saving grace to not being completely raped was the fact of their lag.

vatterin · 04-01-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammock

When you don't care to play or practice on high latencey servers then no, you're not prepared for it one bit. It takes time to learn how to play in that environment, and when you don't do it at all the 2x30 minute rounds is not exactly the best time to "learn how to adjust your timing" as you say. It would be another story if they actually took time out for a couple weeks to play with 150ping but they don't do that, they play on the pickup servers with 60 or less ping almost exclusivley.

To think someone can go from 20 ping to 140 ping and instantly play just as well as before is just plain ignorant.

A group of us (not all of the same clan) scrimmed a bunch of EU guys (I think they were all of the same clan too), on destroy. One of our members doesn't do pickups, and never does offense...like ever.

The EU guys only beat us by 2. And our team fully agreed that our only saving grace to not being completely raped was the fact of their lag.

I will say that I have to agree with hammock however, since I do play in a lot of EU pickups the difference of a ping jump from 40-50 to 120-130 is not very much. I can adjust to it in less than 5 minutes if I'm not used to it. It's definitely not hard to keep up either.

46 and 2 · 04-01-2009, 10:26 PM

"since I do play in a lot of EU pickups the difference of a ping jump from 40-50 to 120-130 is not very much."

I do not play pickups at all, but a jump from 50 to 120 is huge. You guys must be amazing if you can hh at 120 when you have played 98 percent of your maps with 20-50 ping.

I must really suck if you can smoothly adjust to a giant ping in under 5 mins. That means, at that ping, your play is not affected greatly, which I have a hard time believing.

vatterin · 04-02-2009, 01:45 AM

Timing is not hard to pickup on with higher ping, simply wait later to jump with your hand held concs. It's like that in TFC and FF, I played tfc from roughly 2000 till 07-08. After years of doing it, it becomes more natural.

46 and 2 · 04-02-2009, 05:45 AM

Thanks for shattering my illusion that I didnt suck. Now I KNOW I suck.

Then again, you played tfc for loooong time, maybe the difference in 3 years as opposed to 8 years is the problem.

Oh, wait, of course it is. Probably the reason I only played a few pickups.

Yea, I can adjust sometimes, waiting longer is one thing. In the middle of one of these comp matches, with the numbers they use, 4v4, or even 5v5, there is not alot of room for adjusting, and running around missing one or 2 hh.

I played pickups in tfc, and speced allot of pickups. The shit moves fast, it just seems that as fast and accurate alot of flag runners concs and air control, that dealing with high ping, when your not used to it, can really be a problem.

Hoopajoo · 04-02-2009, 05:59 AM

I didn't play in the eu vs africa game, but I heard it was a good game.

Random thoughts:

NA competitive scene needs more teams, for sure.

My ping is always 120 in the USA even... QQ

And whoever put that noob ramp in monkey.. wtf.. I thought we got rid of skimming to get rid of noob bullshit? And then that?

If euro's would agree to play 4v4 or 5v5 instead of these massive 8v8's, we'd have way more transcontinental games. The Goodfellas would be apt to play.

caesium · 04-02-2009, 11:21 AM

our clan's been playing a bit of transcontinental 4v4 recently, but yeah i'd love to do it more often. thing is, if you want to play 4v4 then you might as well just play a clan rather than a "best of" EU team, so i suggest the NA team (or anyone else interested) just keep trying asking for matches in #ff.pickup on quakenet.

if the NA team can easily beat all the 4v4 EU clans then sure we could make an EU 4v4 team, but otherwise it seems a bit pointless and i'd rather do a full 8v8 if we're going to go to the hastle of organising ppl from different clans.

i would rly like to play another 8v8 EU/NA game tho. i think ppl have been trying to organise one, but i've been away lots recently so dno what went wrong. i'm avail this coming weekend, but then i'm away for about a month over easter (i suspect quite a few others might be away randomly too), so we could try for this sunday. is that a possibility for NA? - i'll start asking some EU ppl tonight to get a rough idea.

caesium · 04-02-2009, 11:27 AM

to clarify regarding the monkey flag-plinth ramp...

elmo put this in several patches ago, and for many reasons it is strongly supported by most of the dev team. aside from having pretty much no impact on the EU/NA match (i'll explain this later), it's not "noob" and it is absolutely not comparable to the skimming issue (in fact i'd strongly argue the exact opposite as it rewards fully intentional relatively high precision movement, whereas the issue with skimming was basically that it disproportionately rewarded v low-skill, low precision, often not even fully intentional movement by thriving on confusion and mistakes on defence rather than good play by offy... which is not cool at all). anyway, i could go into detail if anyone needs it spelling out, but basically what the ramp effects is the viability of flagrun offy going T (which even with the ramp is still nowhere near as good as going pit by a long long way - but the balance is a lot btr now and the resulting gameplay possibilities are more varied and interesting for everyone). this is exemplified by the fact that in the EU/NA match our flagrun offy almost exclusively went pit when the flag was up, not T, so anyone who pld on the NA def and who has a clue what they are on about would know that: 1) the ramp had practically no effect on the match at all on the EU-offy vs NA-def side; 2) although the ramp has succeeded in helping make T more viable for flagrun offy when flag is up, pit is still a _lot_ better, so the ramp definitely hasn't gone too far in changing this balance but it has introduced more options and a better balance to the routes and possible strategies.

there should be a new word invented for blaming a loss on some part a map that didn't even have any significant effect on the match, with the effect of which is actually the exact opposite of what you claim in your reasoning to be "wrong" with it lol. sadly "gatoring" is already taken (the act of repeatedly spamming/suiciding to "gator" a corridor near a respawn). oh yes, i went there.

i think i'm rly getting the hang of this whole USA-style abusive community thing, hey?

xks · 04-02-2009, 01:42 PM

Once again Hammock, if gator is as good as he thinks he is then he'd have no trouble adjusting to a higher latency. He might not be able to play at his best, but since his best is so much further ahead of everyone elses then I'm sure he would manage.

As for more 4v4's and less 8v8's, 8v8's are just better in every way and if you can't find 8 people to play FF with you have trouble really, especially with this community. There are so many people in this community playing FF an awful lot and none of them have clans, many of them would be good prospects to make the step up but there is little to no reason for them to do so. There are no 8v8 leagues ready to start, there aren't many 8 man clans wanting to play you in the first place and arguments over latency are occuring far more often than they should do in the modern world.

caesium · 04-02-2009, 02:20 PM

xks: the reason why 4v4 clan matches are a good idea is that it's much easier to get a group of 4 ppl together and organised regularly than 8. also, 4v4 works v well for ppl learning the game as you get to try your hand at a bit of everything. that doesn't mean i don't much prefer 8v8 ideally tho, just that 4v4 is v handy atm!

as for lag, yes, in theory the system of 1 round per server should average out if the pings are roughly equivalent, but in practice they never are equivalent and also whichever team deals with the lag best (or least worst!) is a big factor. as others are saying, i'm sure you can get much better at dealing with the lag if you play more on such servers, but i'm certainly not used to it at all yet - it completely screwed me over being teleported all over the place as i tried to navigate through simple doorways or pick up the flag lol (tho i think that was in part due to dumb-ass me not lowering my rates for the USA server)

hey there FF pubbers!: i'd recommend anyone who enjoys public FF but has never tried organised FF to give it a go and play some pickups, join a clan, or make their own 4v4 clan with some buddies and play some matches. let other clans know if you're just starting out and want them to go easy on you or give you some pointers. best place to do any of that is by asking in #ff.pickup

Hammock · 04-02-2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caesium

as for lag, yes, in theory the system of 1 round per server should average out if the pings are roughly equivalent, but in practice they never are equivalent and also whichever team deals with the lag best (or least worst!) is a big factor. as others are saying, i'm sure you can get much better at dealing with the lag if you play more on such servers, but i'm certainly not used to it at all yet - it completely screwed me over being teleported all over the place as i tried to navigate through simple doorways or pick up the flag lol (tho i think that was in part due to dumb-ass me not lowering my rates for the USA server)

Thank you!, that's exactly how I see it. I don't see it as who's the best of the best, I see it as who can handle the lag better. Hence my statement to actually see a match played with completely even lag, without actually trying to defend either side in the process. This xks seems to have a vendetta against gator and immiediately attacked him after I made my own personal wish.

zelenjava · 04-02-2009, 06:08 PM

ramps didnt stop us from winning. We just walked through T and walked right back out WITH YOUR FLAG.

xks · 04-02-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammock

This xks seems to have a vendetta against gator and immiediately attacked him after I made my own personal wish.

Not at all, I just find it amusing to poke fun at anyone who thinks they are the most gifted player ever to go near the game. Especially when this person had a hissy fit over a tweaked ramp on a map that his own side chose (long after it was tweaked I might add), not that the ramp made the slightest difference in the game anyway.

As for handling lag, it takes skill to adjust your timing in order to rapidly adjust to lag and whilst it's frustrating and annoying to die when you feel your normal low latency would have avoided it you should just learn to live with it. Treat latency like the weather at a sports event, it's not always behaving exactly the way you want it but if you are a great athlete you can overcome the difference it makes and still shine.

Hammock · 04-02-2009, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xks

As for handling lag, it takes skill to adjust your timing in order to rapidly adjust to lag and whilst it's frustrating and annoying to die when you feel your normal low latency would have avoided it you should just learn to live with it. Treat latency like the weather at a sports event, it's not always behaving exactly the way you want it but if you are a great athlete you can overcome the difference it makes and still shine.

Weather or environment is only equal if both sides are used to playing in it, then both sides have an equal chance of overcoming it. If a Florida soccer team (who would usually only practice and play in nice warm weather or maybe the rain) goes up against a Canadian soccer team (who will consistently play and practice in the snow and freezing rain), who do you think is going to have an easier time overcoming the obstacle of weather when both teams are playing with an inch of snow on the ground and freezing rain pelting them the whole game?

I had a similar problem touring with my rugby team. We went down into the states and played up in the mountains in Colorado in some airforce academy. We were used to playing at low altitudes whereas they weren't. Within 15 minutes my entire team were gasping for breath (even though we could run the full 90 minutes in our own environment), and they hadn't even broken a sweat.

Or why isn't the best concrete tennis player nescessarily the best clay tennis player? It's the same sport, same rules, same motions. Yet they're almost always a different person considered "the best" for the two different environments. Because they each religiously practice for the one they're dedicated to playing, and unfamiliar with the environment of the other.

This is why teams love to play on their home turf, they have the advantage of being used to whatever is usually thrown their way.

04-01-2009, 05:17 PM	#25
Hammock D&A Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 13 Times	When you don't care to play or practice on high latencey servers then no, you're not prepared for it one bit. It takes time to learn how to play in that environment, and when you don't do it at all the 2x30 minute rounds is not exactly the best time to "learn how to adjust your timing" as you say. It would be another story if they actually took time out for a couple weeks to play with 150ping but they don't do that, they play on the pickup servers with 60 or less ping almost exclusivley. To think someone can go from 20 ping to 140 ping and instantly play just as well as before is just plain ignorant. A group of us (not all of the same clan) scrimmed a bunch of EU guys (I think they were all of the same clan too), on destroy. One of our members doesn't do pickups, and never does offense...like ever. The EU guys only beat us by 2. And our team fully agreed that our only saving grace to not being completely raped was the fact of their lag. Last edited by Hammock; 04-01-2009 at 05:26 PM.

04-02-2009, 05:59 AM	#30
Hoopajoo Join Date: Aug 2007 Affiliations: ( GoodFellas . ) Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I didn't play in the eu vs africa game, but I heard it was a good game. Random thoughts: NA competitive scene needs more teams, for sure. My ping is always 120 in the USA even... QQ And whoever put that noob ramp in monkey.. wtf.. I thought we got rid of skimming to get rid of noob bullshit? And then that? If euro's would agree to play 4v4 or 5v5 instead of these massive 8v8's, we'd have way more transcontinental games. The Goodfellas would be apt to play. Last edited by Hoopajoo; 04-02-2009 at 06:06 AM.

04-01-2009, 03:25 AM	#21
xks Exceedingly Correct. Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: London, England. Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	I think everyone makes too much of this latency thing, it's perfectly possible for both sides to get similar average pings on servers both sides of the atlantic. The difficulty arrives when some of the American players are West Coast, that screws everything up usually. At the end of the game you wont have won/lost because of a 10ms latency difference so it's best to just play and enjoy. As for my participation in the NA FF scene, obviously I don't participate since I'm from Europe, but then I don't currently participate in European FF either I'm sure there is rivalry but we don't see enough of it on this forum.

04-01-2009, 05:03 PM	#24
xks Exceedingly Correct. Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: London, England. Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	The point is everyone has to deal with an increased latency, those that live on the West Coast of America or in Eastern Europe will suffer the worst, that's just how it is. If Gator was as good as he seems to think he is he would have dealt just fine with the latency problem. Stability and consistency are the most important parts of a connection, the rest is just learning to time your shooting differently, although it's far less of an issue in Source than it is in Quake. If it's smooth I can play at about 80 or 90% of my ability at 130ms even though I'm used to 5-15ms on UK servers.

04-01-2009, 10:26 PM	#27
46 and 2 I am Redeye for anything. Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sacramento California Class/Position: Def NG Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: [TALOS] Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	"since I do play in a lot of EU pickups the difference of a ping jump from 40-50 to 120-130 is not very much." I do not play pickups at all, but a jump from 50 to 120 is huge. You guys must be amazing if you can hh at 120 when you have played 98 percent of your maps with 20-50 ping. I must really suck if you can smoothly adjust to a giant ping in under 5 mins. That means, at that ping, your play is not affected greatly, which I have a hard time believing.

04-02-2009, 01:45 AM	#28
vatterin David- Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 18 Times	Timing is not hard to pickup on with higher ping, simply wait later to jump with your hand held concs. It's like that in TFC and FF, I played tfc from roughly 2000 till 07-08. After years of doing it, it becomes more natural.

04-02-2009, 05:45 AM	#29
46 and 2 I am Redeye for anything. Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sacramento California Class/Position: Def NG Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: [TALOS] Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Thanks for shattering my illusion that I didnt suck. Now I KNOW I suck. Then again, you played tfc for loooong time, maybe the difference in 3 years as opposed to 8 years is the problem. Oh, wait, of course it is. Probably the reason I only played a few pickups. Yea, I can adjust sometimes, waiting longer is one thing. In the middle of one of these comp matches, with the numbers they use, 4v4, or even 5v5, there is not alot of room for adjusting, and running around missing one or 2 hh. I played pickups in tfc, and speced allot of pickups. The shit moves fast, it just seems that as fast and accurate alot of flag runners concs and air control, that dealing with high ping, when your not used to it, can really be a problem.

04-02-2009, 11:21 AM	#31
caesium Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: europe Class/Position: anything Gametype: everything Affiliations: #teamfail Posts Rated Helpful 27 Times	our clan's been playing a bit of transcontinental 4v4 recently, but yeah i'd love to do it more often. thing is, if you want to play 4v4 then you might as well just play a clan rather than a "best of" EU team, so i suggest the NA team (or anyone else interested) just keep trying asking for matches in #ff.pickup on quakenet. if the NA team can easily beat all the 4v4 EU clans then sure we could make an EU 4v4 team, but otherwise it seems a bit pointless and i'd rather do a full 8v8 if we're going to go to the hastle of organising ppl from different clans. i would rly like to play another 8v8 EU/NA game tho. i think ppl have been trying to organise one, but i've been away lots recently so dno what went wrong. i'm avail this coming weekend, but then i'm away for about a month over easter (i suspect quite a few others might be away randomly too), so we could try for this sunday. is that a possibility for NA? - i'll start asking some EU ppl tonight to get a rough idea.

04-02-2009, 11:27 AM	#32
caesium Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: europe Class/Position: anything Gametype: everything Affiliations: #teamfail Posts Rated Helpful 27 Times	to clarify regarding the monkey flag-plinth ramp... elmo put this in several patches ago, and for many reasons it is strongly supported by most of the dev team. aside from having pretty much no impact on the EU/NA match (i'll explain this later), it's not "noob" and it is absolutely not comparable to the skimming issue (in fact i'd strongly argue the exact opposite as it rewards fully intentional relatively high precision movement, whereas the issue with skimming was basically that it disproportionately rewarded v low-skill, low precision, often not even fully intentional movement by thriving on confusion and mistakes on defence rather than good play by offy... which is not cool at all). anyway, i could go into detail if anyone needs it spelling out, but basically what the ramp effects is the viability of flagrun offy going T (which even with the ramp is still nowhere near as good as going pit by a long long way - but the balance is a lot btr now and the resulting gameplay possibilities are more varied and interesting for everyone). this is exemplified by the fact that in the EU/NA match our flagrun offy almost exclusively went pit when the flag was up, not T, so anyone who pld on the NA def and who has a clue what they are on about would know that: 1) the ramp had practically no effect on the match at all on the EU-offy vs NA-def side; 2) although the ramp has succeeded in helping make T more viable for flagrun offy when flag is up, pit is still a _lot_ better, so the ramp definitely hasn't gone too far in changing this balance but it has introduced more options and a better balance to the routes and possible strategies. there should be a new word invented for blaming a loss on some part a map that didn't even have any significant effect on the match, with the effect of which is actually the exact opposite of what you claim in your reasoning to be "wrong" with it lol. sadly "gatoring" is already taken (the act of repeatedly spamming/suiciding to "gator" a corridor near a respawn). oh yes, i went there. i think i'm rly getting the hang of this whole USA-style abusive community thing, hey?

04-02-2009, 01:42 PM	#33
xks Exceedingly Correct. Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: London, England. Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	Once again Hammock, if gator is as good as he thinks he is then he'd have no trouble adjusting to a higher latency. He might not be able to play at his best, but since his best is so much further ahead of everyone elses then I'm sure he would manage. As for more 4v4's and less 8v8's, 8v8's are just better in every way and if you can't find 8 people to play FF with you have trouble really, especially with this community. There are so many people in this community playing FF an awful lot and none of them have clans, many of them would be good prospects to make the step up but there is little to no reason for them to do so. There are no 8v8 leagues ready to start, there aren't many 8 man clans wanting to play you in the first place and arguments over latency are occuring far more often than they should do in the modern world.

04-02-2009, 02:20 PM	#34
caesium Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: europe Class/Position: anything Gametype: everything Affiliations: #teamfail Posts Rated Helpful 27 Times	xks: the reason why 4v4 clan matches are a good idea is that it's much easier to get a group of 4 ppl together and organised regularly than 8. also, 4v4 works v well for ppl learning the game as you get to try your hand at a bit of everything. that doesn't mean i don't much prefer 8v8 ideally tho, just that 4v4 is v handy atm! as for lag, yes, in theory the system of 1 round per server should average out if the pings are roughly equivalent, but in practice they never are equivalent and also whichever team deals with the lag best (or least worst!) is a big factor. as others are saying, i'm sure you can get much better at dealing with the lag if you play more on such servers, but i'm certainly not used to it at all yet - it completely screwed me over being teleported all over the place as i tried to navigate through simple doorways or pick up the flag lol (tho i think that was in part due to dumb-ass me not lowering my rates for the USA server) hey there FF pubbers!: i'd recommend anyone who enjoys public FF but has never tried organised FF to give it a go and play some pickups, join a clan, or make their own 4v4 clan with some buddies and play some matches. let other clans know if you're just starting out and want them to go easy on you or give you some pointers. best place to do any of that is by asking in #ff.pickup

04-02-2009, 06:08 PM	#36
zelenjava pew pew cry Bridget Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times	ramps didnt stop us from winning. We just walked through T and walked right back out WITH YOUR FLAG.

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