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06-05-2010, 05:04 PM | #41 | |
Heartless Threadkiller
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Define "Appearance Standard".
What counts as a violation thereof? What if all you've seen *IS* the resume? Oftentimes, a resume can be submitted via e-mail, or FAX. Do you count their e-mail address against them if it's something other than their name? You see the resume, and the candidate exhibits high qualifications for the position they are applying for. You call them for an interview, and on the phone, the person sounds as intelligent as their resume reads. The man shows up, is clean in appearance, dresses good(maybe not perfect, but without a close inspection, appears to fit the visual bill)... After speaking to him for a short time, you are more than satisfied with his abilities... and as you are about to say the words, "You're hired".... you notice he is wearing nail polish. There's nothing in the company dress code about men wearing nail polish, and the man is the only candidate that has applied for the job that meets and/or exceeds all criteria. Tell me, what do you do? Substitute some other minor appearance thing, and tell me what you'd do.
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06-06-2010, 03:51 AM | #42 | |
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06-06-2010, 07:54 AM | #43 | |
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"You are first guy I met who has the sharp artistic sense to notice the subtle mosaic pattern on my nail polish. Do you shop a lot at the cosmetic department?" "My wife is obsessed with make-up and nail polish. I always consulted with the sale reps in the cosmetic section when I select gifts to my wife. By flirting with the saleswomen I was able get them to teach me a few things about nail polish." ________ Genetically modified food Last edited by battery; 03-31-2011 at 12:16 PM. |
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06-06-2010, 11:56 AM | #44 | |
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Let's not lose track of where the real conversation is... the one where Bridget's losing horribly and doing what he always does, running away. Come on kiddo, nut up, don't shut up!
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06-06-2010, 01:00 PM | #45 |
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ITT: Scuzzy completely missing the point, Bridet getting frustrated, Scuzzy thinking he's right and being antagonistic about it. Only on the FF forums!
Bridget's argument is strictly normative--he's saying that it's superficial to judge someone by their appearance, and not their work ethic. He's saying that good appearance and good work ethic are not mutually exclusive. So while, yes, appearance CAN be a good way to weed out bad workers, it's not a concrete way. The simple fact is, the whole argument is moot. Corporations that enforce a strict appearance/dress policy don't actually care that much about your appearance, they're looking for workers who are conformists. Thus is the nature of the corporate world, you're not actually hired for your free thinking intellect, you're hired to do singular and refined tasks, which is the perfect job for a conformist. This is why all the best and most creative corporations don't enforce appearance (Obviously within reason, you can't come to work naked, etc.) standards on their employees. Point in case, Google. Do you really think it's in the best interest of a business to turn away workers who are excellent workers because they don't dress to a societal 'norm'? No, it's a terrible business decision. The thing is, like I said, it's not about hiring the 'best' worker, it's about hiring the conformist who won't ask questions when he sees or does something that is ethically questionable, it's about hiring the conformist who has already been conditioned all his life to follow 'norms', which makes him a perfect fit for a corporation.
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06-06-2010, 04:58 PM | #46 | |||
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Given a choice between to equal candidates should the business hire the guy that everyone will talk about (lost productivity) and perhaps not be comfortable around or the guy that they will? Which pick would be in the best interests of the business Tron? Scuzzy
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06-06-2010, 05:02 PM | #47 |
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The appearance standard I think should be followed is basic self-respect. Don't come to work smelling like garbage or looking like it too. I think no matter what your individual fashion sense or personal build or whatever, you can at-least maintain it in a respectable fashion. There's a difference between someone who is irresponsible in dress and someone who is different in dress.
Genghis pretty much sums it up. A good appearance doesn't necessarily mean a good work ethic just as much as a bad appearance doesn't necessarily mean a bad work ethic. While sometimes you can get it right, it's not a guaranteed and conclusive way to judge an individual. It's as simple as that. Of course, Scuzzy seems to have some problems as he missed that point the first five or so times I said it. |
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06-06-2010, 05:46 PM | #48 | |||
AKA LittleAndroidMan
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You're arguing from a fundamentally flawed position from the very beginning. What Bridget was trying to do was shatter the concept that appearance is mutually exclusive with output. This is patently false. As I said above, Google is an example of where they let their employees dress however they see fit, and they're one of the most successful and creative businesses in the world. Their workers are smarter than your average corporate workers, and they make a boatload of money. Quote:
That doesn't make them unethical. It makes them.... conformists. Quote:
What I'm talking about, is a the individual productivity of the employee in question. If you have a potential employee who has a nosering and listens to heavy metal in his spare time, but was 30% more productive than an equally qualified guy that played the corporate image game.... it would be a very poor business decision to not hire the nose-ring guy. The amount of added productivity by a single industrious employee far out-weighs some magical productivity loss of co-workers making fun of his man-jewelry. What a ridiculous concept.
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06-06-2010, 05:55 PM | #49 | |
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06-06-2010, 06:02 PM | #50 | ||||
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Scuzzy
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06-06-2010, 06:15 PM | #51 | |||||
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Scuzzy
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06-06-2010, 07:25 PM | #52 | |||||
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And no, I never said anything about apparel in the interview. You'll note that when I defended Bridget, I quickly over-viewed you guys' arguments, and really only stuck up for him on a singular point. You argument on interview is irrelevant to me, because I have not brought it up, nor do I have any interest in it. False. You're missing the point. Where did I say it makes them unethical? I didn't. I didn't implicitly, or explicitly say it makes them unethical. That's your interpretation of what I said. Not speaking up when you see something wrong being done in no way, shape, or form, is 'unethical'. It is shady, but I can sympathize. People have a hard time letting their morals get in the way of their own interests, especially when the responsibility is not on their shoulders. As demonstrated by the Milgram experiment. Quote:
Working in a 'corporate' environment, and working in a 'corporation' can mean a lot of things. Corporations are measured differently, by definition a 'small' business has less than 2,000 employes (still very large, comparatively), and market capitalization of $300 million dollars. The devil is in the details when it comes to corporations, so simply saying you work at a corporation, or that you work in a 'corporate environment' doesn't mean much. My mom works in a 'corporate' environment, and it's just her and her boss doing taxes. When I talk about a corporation hiring conformists, I'm talking about the huge mega-corporations, where power is centralized. Obviously there won't be much corruption in a company with ~50 employees. Quote:
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Since we're dragging this thread entirely off-topic, and you didn't agree or disagree with my main point in the first post above where I defended Bridget, I'm assuming you agree? Reference: Quote:
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06-06-2010, 11:19 PM | #53 | |
sKeeD
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All im saying, for both sides, is that the endless jabs at one another will ultimately lead to nothing but more FFdrama. and theres already enough of that, lol. |
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06-07-2010, 01:38 AM | #54 | |||
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Scuzzy
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06-07-2010, 01:38 AM | #55 |
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It's all Bridget has.
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06-07-2010, 02:10 AM | #56 |
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I think the people who do the hiring(or make the policies) often go by their own prejudices, and then rationalize that decision later. Maybe I hate hippies, and so if you come in with long hair I won't hire you. Or maybe I think Mr. Nosering would be fun to hang out with so I'll hire him(all else being equal).
Here's a story about a woman who got fired from a bank for being too hot: http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-06-...ork-in-a-bank/ The story is pretty one-sided, and there's certainly more to the situation than is being said. So, would I be in the right for firing her if her beauty caused a loss of productivity? Should she have to ugly herself up? Last edited by Crazycarl; 06-07-2010 at 02:11 AM. |
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06-07-2010, 08:00 AM | #57 | |||||
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I presented my argument in a civil manner multiple times despite your condescending attitude. So, really?
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The only 'jab' I made was after these above-mentioned posts: Quote:
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06-07-2010, 11:03 AM | #58 |
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I know this is going to be a surprise to you, but I wasn't only talking about your posts in this thread. And again, you distract from your position in this thread because you know you can't defend it. I didn't think you were actually going to debate, but wanted to point it out. cheers.
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06-07-2010, 11:47 AM | #59 |
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Again, I have presented my opinions in this thread in a civil manner, so regardless of whether you wish to talk about my reputation within this thread or outside of it, obviously you're wrong in implying that 'ffdrama' is all I have. I have easily defended my argument, which is really redundant, because I'm pointing out a fact.
It's all there. Black and white. Clear as crystal. You make claims without evidence. You imply things contrary to reality. So, you get nothing! You lose! GOOD DAY, SIR! |
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06-07-2010, 10:51 PM | #60 | |
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