Sniper: Removal from CTF maps?

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by TACO-BELL

So.. your idea is to replace the sniper rifle with a special rifle that does no damage and just radiotags enemies (temporarily) and take away the AR?

Not at all. When did I say no damage? I said remove the damage charge. Have a flat damage that can kill a scout in 2 shots (maybe have a 2-step damage charge. Flat damage until fully charged whereupon you deal double damage). No refire delay. No scope penalties. Can move at full speed while charging. Can jump while shooting. That allows mobility, and removes the necessity of midmap sniping.

And I said replace the AR. Not remove it.

[Paft]

I was talking about TFC really on 2fort. If it's a quiet game say 3v3 you'll have little chance getting past a decent sniper (ON 2FORT) .
Don't give me "strategy bs". No such thing as strategy in TF. It's about speed and movement (being ironic, don't start giving me lectures)

[betterschindt]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Have a flat damage that can kill a scout in 2 shots (maybe have a 2-step damage charge. Flat damage until fully charged whereupon you deal double damage). No refire delay. No scope penalties. Can move at full speed while charging. Can jump while shooting. That allows mobility, and removes the necessity of midmap sniping.

And I said replace the AR. Not remove it.

lol so your suggesting a sniper can only one shot kill a scout!
haha, thats funny.
i will quit if they even think about doing anythign remotely close to what youve suggested.

id rather play a hw guy with just a shotgun for my entire life then play that version of sniper.
talk a bout boring...



"can jump while shooting?"

i heard jumping improves accuracy, especially at long range targets.
lol

*edit* I think this is what Circ had a problem with.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by betterschindt

lol so your suggesting a sniper can only one shot kill a scout!
haha, thats funny.
i will quit if they even think about doing anythign remotely close to what youve suggested.

id rather play a hw guy with just a shotgun for my entire life then play that version of sniper.
talk a bout boring...

One shot kill is only fun for the killer. Why not have the sniper adhere to what every other class in the game has to deal with?

One-shot kills could be implemented via lua for certain maps/gametypes. But a one-shot kill in CTF is just never going to work.

Originally Posted by betterschindt

"can jump while shooting?"

i heard jumping improves accuracy, especially at long range targets.
lol

The idea is to make it more viable at close range while keeping it usable at long ranges. You're not forced to jump while shooting.

[cownaetion]

sniper needs to be improved much, maybe not to qwtf-level, but right now hes a joke. Then make the pyro a counter-class, almost invincible against sniperbullets, and suddenly both classes have a right to exist.

Ah, an old timer bringing back the golden question from QWTF: "What's worse, a team full of snipers or a team full of soldiers?"

m surprised to see people bitching about this. IMO, sniping is much more difficult in FF than TFC, and thus less of an annoyance. I have no problem with a leet sniper making my life more difficult, as, well, i respect his/her skills. If i get popped a few rounds in a row, i usually say fuck this, change tactics and then bear down and make life more difficult for HIM for awhile.

sooooo, after we get rid of snipers whats next? those fagot ass soldiers wont let me get the enemy flag, take his fucking ass out to!

improve your skills are move on, dont try to ruin the fucking game because you suck....

More colorful language than I'd use but he's right to the point that this same situation has been around for over 10 years and the only answer to the problem is to get better. If it wasn't the sniper, it'd be the soldier. If it wasn't the soldier, it'd be something else. I remember vividly when TFC first came out, the Heavy Weapons' Guy was all the complaints. Being a horrible class (I played Heavy a lot in Pubs) in QWTF to a 'uber noob' class in TFC (why people still use the term newbie when they totally use the term in the wrong situations is beyond me). And I'm sure it's safe to say everyone here at least has some TFC experience and regardless at what point in time they jumped in, the only way was to get better. This doesn't apply to just the classes, think about the addition of the teleporter, hell even the grenades (type 2) were radically changed from QWTF, but you get use to it. This doesn't mean change is a bad thing, but sometimes it is bad and there is key to pleasing everyone and will just have to suck it up. Should be happy there's still at least bunny hopping

All in all we're arguing over something that in the end will be the same and we'll all just have to evolve like we have with every other game. Disclaimer: All my opinion, no flames necessary.

[TACO-BELL]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Have a flat damage that can kill a scout in 2 shots (maybe have a 2-step damage charge. Flat damage until fully charged whereupon you deal double damage). No refire delay. No scope penalties. Can move at full speed while charging. Can jump while shooting. That allows mobility, and removes the necessity of midmap sniping.

Okay- but really what you are saying here isn't any better (and is almost the current state of 2.0). Have you tried sniping a clan scout with concs and jump pad? Try doing it twice before they get past you. Even without charging, its almost impossible to do twice on a decent scout except occasionally in Aardvark. And 2 shots to kill a scout translates to like 4 shots to kill a soldier, who can use bh, the jump pad, plus rj/gj to cross the map almost as quickly.

We could argue different scenarios all day, but it fact seems that you don't want to get sniped and aren't willing to learn the TF tricks and stratagies to avoid that. And you're not alone, others share your view. You guys managed to make a front for this viewpoint in some hidden dev team forum so ultimately TF style sniping ended in FF with 2.0.

What I'm saying is thats fine, play your clan style if thats what you enjoy. Just don't push that extreme view onto the bunch of us who want it to be more traditional TF for pubbing. Take out the sniper by default, as thats your real goal, and leave the 1.11 sniper in as a server option that an admin can enable so those of us can still play our TF style on a pub server or two that support it. Let it be an option so those of us who like traditional TF sniping will still have interest in the game.

It'd be interesting to see how the 1.11 sniper would play in 2.0 with +bh, jump pads and other classes being upgraded. It'd probably be a lot more balanced than 1.11 was or 2.0 is today.

[TACO-BELL]

Originally Posted by squeek.

You're not forced to jump while shooting.

LOL yeah that will only happen in 3.0 if you manage to get good with the 2.0 rifle!

Originally Posted by squeek.

But a one-shot kill in CTF is just never going to work.

HuH? Umm it's been 11 years so far? People still play QWTF today so......

Honestly I don't know your background but judging by some of your posts in this thread, about not being able to evade snipers and wack estimates about sniping different classes.. it looks like you are somewhat new to TF games.

I'm not saying it to knock you (well maybe a little, its not personal) but you are bringing in some pretty extreme ideas into the game-- mainly out of ignorance it seems, and you will definately chase quite a few players out of the mod this way. Your posts are scary to read.

[GoatMan]

Snipers are a pest... a pest i aim to exterminate. Hah

Snipers definatly don't fit in real well in TF and never have but its easier to let the server admins decide than to remove it altogether as thats an entire class gone.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by TACO-BELL

HuH? Umm it's been 11 years so far? People still play QWTF today so......

Honestly I don't know your background but judging by some of your posts in this thread, about not being able to evade snipers and wack estimates about sniping different classes.. it looks like you are somewhat new to TF games.

I'm not saying it to knock you (well maybe a little, its not personal) but you are bringing in some pretty extreme ideas into the game-- mainly out of ignorance it seems, and you will definately chase quite a few players out of the mod this way. Your posts are scary to read.

Eh?

The sniper has never fit into TF. Simply because the game has existed that long does not mean that the class has ever fit.

Ones ability to dodge sniper fire is also absolutely irrelevant to how the class fits into a game.

To compare, the sniper in TF is like a rail gun in CS. It simply doesn't fit.

To compare again, the sniper in TF is like a car accident on a highway. It simply doesn't fit.

To compare again, the sniper in TF is like a chariot in NASCAR.

To compare again, the sniper in TF is like a Gsus7 chord in a Country song in the key of A#.

[GambiT]

your on crack...

[Mr. Happy]

There's no problem with the sniper, the problem is that people don't know how to design maps with him in mind.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by TACO-BELL

HuH? Umm it's been 11 years so far? People still play QWTF today so......

Honestly I don't know your background but judging by some of your posts in this thread, about not being able to evade snipers and wack estimates about sniping different classes.. it looks like you are somewhat new to TF games.

I'm not saying it to knock you (well maybe a little, its not personal) but you are bringing in some pretty extreme ideas into the game-- mainly out of ignorance it seems, and you will definately chase quite a few players out of the mod this way. Your posts are scary to read.

I know my ideas are extreme; I am completely aware of that. I think the dev tag is altering your view of them, though. My suggestions are just merely thoughts. I do not think the sniper is viable in clanplay, and would like to see changes so that it can be. That does not mean I will push for MY changes to be made, and have never done so.

As for the ignorance part, I plead guilty. I almost exclusively play pickups nowadays and haven't encountered a sniper in one yet (not sure if CUJO ever tried; would like to hear how it went if he did).

Again, take my suggestions with a grain of salt. I am not pushing for any certain changes. I want to discuss the options, and it seems this dev tag excludes me from that a bit.

I guess radical changes will never be accepted by the specific community it affects, ever. Even a shorter pipe fuse was too much for demoman players.

[Circuitous]

TACO was one of the guys I wanted to get added to beta, so we could get a good, experienced Sniper's opinion, as well as consistently have one available during testing.

[SSCUJO]

yes Squeek i've played sniper in acutal pickups twice. once in 1.11 and once in 2.0

in 1.11 i was able to dominate the flag room, never giving the enemy the chance to nailgun the sg, and giving the team a heads up with radio tags. even when i missed my shots i was able to provide enough pressure on them so that they couldn't stand still and get a clear shot at anybody or anything, they were constantly in a mode of panic.

in 2.0 it was an much worse, i was still able to hit my targets but it simply took to many shots to kill them, it wasn't effective enough. the one saving grace when i played in 2.0 was leg shots, i found no matter if i was on O or D the leg shot became extremely useful in letting my team capitalize, aswell Sg's never lasted long when i played O.

i should alos add that when playing sniper in clan style matches I never midmap.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

yes Squeek i've played sniper in acutal pickups twice. once in 1.11 and once in 2.0

I wish I would have been there. Why didn't you play more in 1.11? Did people on either side (your team or the enemy team) complain?

[SSCUJO]

when pickups are short i always offer but i offer as sniepr only. im always denied. thus i don't get much practice in the pick up ring.

there was one other occassion in which i played a pickup as sniper.

it was a 5v5 randoms VS. Fellas, boths sides went in knowing i would play sniper and agreed to it, but after the first 2 minutes of the match almost the entire fellas team started harrasing me and insulting me, telling me to switch classes, saying that i wasn't playing a really class. mind you they were dominating the match, they just decided to attribute my entire teams faults on me.

since then i have stopped offering to sub in pickups

[cownaetion]

Just weaken the sniper rifle, headshots are still one-hit kills. Just make the hit boxes smaller. It's a quick implementation thats easy to try. The more skilled you are, the better you'll hit those boxes.

[SSCUJO]

Originally Posted by cownaetion

Just weaken the sniper rifle, headshots are still one-hit kills. Just make the hit boxes smaller. It's a quick implementation thats easy to try. The more skilled you are, the better you'll hit those boxes.

if you do this, any sniper with skill can midmap headshot no problem, and you will once again come back complaining that snipers are over powered. not to mention you would compeletely eliminate the possiblity of a sniper being usefull in any other place other than the midmap. i don't care how good you are, hitting a concing medic or scout in the head in a flag room is not worth spending the time trying.

[myersjr]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

when pickups are short i always offer but i offer as sniepr only. im always denied. thus i don't get much practice in the pick up ring.

there was one other occassion in which i played a pickup as sniper.

it was a 5v5 randoms VS. Fellas, boths sides went in knowing i would play sniper and agreed to it, but after the first 2 minutes of the match almost the entire fellas team started harrasing me and insulting me, telling me to switch classes, saying that i wasn't playing a really class. mind you they were dominating the match, they just decided to attribute my entire teams faults on me.

since then i have stopped offering to sub in pickups

Hey cujo..im a little new to some of the terms used in this community. what is the difference between pickups and say, other types of games..?? come to the ae server dude..you could play whatever you want..even sniper..we dont care

[SSCUJO]

pickups are 'clan style' matchs organized within the Pickups IRC channel... basically a pick is when u want to play a clan match with clan match rules, but your clan mates aren't around. so 8 random people form different clans and such all join a pool, and a computer randomly assigns the teams, and they play eachother.

its jsut a way to play clan games without getting together a whole bunch of your clan mates.