are you still playing FF?

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Me. I was just demonstrating that my point leads to a conclusion already agreed upon.

I find this curious since it was under your watch that sg push was lowered to the lowest its been in any TF game, then changed a year later to the SECOND lowest level. Regardless, I'll be glad if the gun gets a boost and doesn't get nerfed again.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Iggy

I think part of the reason for the Jumppad in the first place, was to help promote teamwork and balance Offense.

A scout can make 3-4 runs, dying each time and getting nothing accomplished, in the time it takes a Demo, Solly, or other support class to make 1 run.

It depends on the map.

But here's a simple question. Why ever run a single scout if a medic does the same things he can do but better? Well, you don't... unless the person playing the scout is above and beyond everybody else in the game ever, in which case you'd run a scout because the person playing the scout can take advantage of the reason the scout exists: speed.

The jump pad always has and always will be a nerf to the scout and a buff to every other class in the game. Yeah, the scout is used now because of it. But why is he used now? Because he gives everybody a conc.

All the jump pad has ever done was nerf the medic and scout. Yeah, the scout is more useful now. Too bad everybody on his team now has a conc.

Why run two scouts?

[Credge]

I'm just going to make another post and make this real big because I don't know the answer to this. I assume there isn't one.

WHY RUN TWO SCOUTS?

[Crazycarl]

What exactly is wrong with the situation you describe? Letting one class buff other players is not "nerfing" it. The medic can heal other players, letting them be more viable on O. Is that a nerf to the medic?

One indicator of good class balance is when a mix of classes is better than all the same class.

[episkopos]

I think what he means is that the jump pad lowers the requirement for a team to have scouts and medics, as it confers one of the abilities of scouts and medics have (large jumps) onto other classes. Of course this ignores the fact that jump pads are static, require maintenance, and can benefit the enemy, especially when badly placed, whereas concs can be performed anywhere as long as the player has sufficient conc grenades. I see his point though.

[JackBauer]

today I could read a funny conversation. some people think FF would be a success if you replaced the models with zombies...

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Credge

It depends on the map.

[/B]

Exactly. You can sum up most of the "problems" in this game with this answer. So, that begs the question, is it problems in the game, or problems within the maps themselves?

Snipers are overpowered!! "Depends on the map."
SGs are underpowered!! "Depends on the map."

(Just to yank 2 out of the air)

Snipers can dominate on maps with large yards. Yet with closed quarters maps, they are nearly defenseless. The SG has problems with anywhere a player can get movement advantages, but in semi-close quarters, they can still defend an (smaller)area properly.

I know this isn't the whole solution to the problems, and yes, there are balance issues. But I think alot of the "problems" are being blown out of proportion.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by Iggy

But I think alot of the "problems" are being blown out of proportion.

wonder who would go so far as to blow things out of proportion?
hmm...

[Lynus]

WHY RUN 2 SCOUTS :
AVD doesnt make much sense unless you needed 2 jumppads...
CTF is useful for when the demoman doesn't miss a det... you can sacrifice a scout for the flag in some situations.
IVD speed gets points

[zE]

Originally Posted by reaper18

zE, before more implementation is done, there should be balance changes such as credge, chilledsanity, and many other have posted.
Longer sg build time with higher push, removal of jump pad, balance and more definition for pyro, a more structured environment for newbies etc etc.

Im excited for 2.42 and to see the changes it brings to the table, but until we see what has been done about the current issues, theres only room for speculation

Sure, but tweaking sg push or damage values wont afect much how ctf is played in a pub envoirment, and i just see always the same 2 or 3 dudes complaining all the time about unbalanced classes : p By other side if ff pub was more structured that would me make me and other dudes play it more often, because ctf pub with more than 8 dudes is just free for all.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

What exactly is wrong with the situation you describe? Letting one class buff other players is not "nerfing" it. The medic can heal other players, letting them be more viable on O. Is that a nerf to the medic?

One indicator of good class balance is when a mix of classes is better than all the same class.

Everything is the problem.

You aren't letting one class buff the other. You're giving the other classes the EXACT same tool he has. Why does a demoman need to fly through the air like a scout?

A medic gives people health. He does not allow them to heal others.

See the difference?

Originally Posted by Iggy

Exactly. You can sum up most of the "problems" in this game with this answer. So, that begs the question, is it problems in the game, or problems within the maps themselves?

Snipers are overpowered!! "Depends on the map."
SGs are underpowered!! "Depends on the map."

(Just to yank 2 out of the air)

But you can. It's not like this problem exists only on one or two maps (Aardvark for snipers, as an example). This is like... every single map EXCEPT for two.

It seems self evident that ever since the introduction of the jump pad, CTF and AVD took a dramatic dive in functionality.

Originally Posted by Lynus

WHY RUN 2 SCOUTS :
AVD doesnt make much sense unless you needed 2 jumppads...
CTF is useful for when the demoman doesn't miss a det... you can sacrifice a scout for the flag in some situations.
IVD speed gets points

AVD you are right.

CTF: Why run a second scout when a medic can do the exact same thing? So, they're a little bit slower. After the scout blows it, the higher health medic will just breeze through. Remember, he has an EXTRA conc. He didn't have to use his original conc grenade to get across the yard.

IVD: Yep. Game mode designed around speed.

One indicator of good class balance is when a mix of classes is better than all the same class.

I'm going to think about how to take what I'm trying to say about this an minimize it in to one or two sentences.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

One indicator of good class balance is when a mix of classes is better than all the same class.

Interesting. For AvD, what's superior to EVERYBODY going soldier on O? Granted, you won't get to the caps QUITE as fast as some other classes (which usually die anyway), but it's very, very effective.

[Crazycarl]

All soldiers and one scout to build a jump pad? AvD is a bad example because there are no concs. Soldier has few weaknesses. Do you think they are overpowered? How would you make them less useful on offense?

[Credge]

One indicator of good class balance is when a mix of classes is better than all the same class.

A truly balanced game would not have classes. The entire point of having classes is so players can exploit their enemies weaknesses while using their own skill to exaggerate the benefits of their class. And diversity is not a predicate of balance in a game like FF.

The reason for the scout isn't to help others move across large spaces in a hurry. That was the engineers job in TFC, and it was a horrible idea back then. The reason for the scout is to move fast.

But the problem was never that the scout sucked. The scout was OP before the game friction was changed and then he became slightly UP. The problem was that, despite how OP the scout was, medics were MORE OP. Why run a scout at all when a medic does so much more at a slightly slower speed?

So then, you give people a reason to run a scout. Except it's the absolute wrong reason for running a scout. On top of that, it assed up most of the game and now, instead of just removing the fucking thing we have spent some two years trying to balance the unforeseen consequences it has caused.

[squeek.]

No matter how much you want to say the medic is equal to the scout in movement and better in everything else, you're wrong.

With or without the jump pad, you're wrong.

The run speeds are not equal. The conc speeds are not equal. The movement abilities are simply not equal.

EDIT: I can show you an infinite number of moves that a scout can do that a medic can not do (try to conc->rampslide from schtop FD to the enemy button as a medic).

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by Credge

[B]it assed up most of the game

How so? I'm not married to the thing, so convince me. Though I'm not in charge of adding and removing features, I'd like to hear what's bad about it.

I'm tired as hell of managing expectations of what such-and-such class should do based on how people have played them in the past. Those arguments don't interest me.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

All soldiers and one scout to build a jump pad? AvD is a bad example because there are no concs. Soldier has few weaknesses. Do you think they are overpowered? How would you make them less useful on offense?

There are plenty of concs in AVD. Every soldier that jumps through the jump pad just got a free conc. Mind you it's limited in use, but they still got it.

It's not like most AvD maps have multiple paths to take. They're linear because they focus is on pushing. Sure, some have a grate you can blow up, or on one cap they have two ways to take the flag. But by and large, you've got one linear path to take the flag.

The whole 'sniper shoots somebody to the cap' or 'demoman blasts somebody to the cap' thing is a design oversight that completely undermines the point of the game mode and the jump pad just adds to this oversight.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

How so? I'm not married to the thing, so convince me. Though I'm not in charge of adding and removing features, I'd like to hear what's bad about it.

I mean, there's only so many ways I can say the word everything.

The design behind it was to make the scout useful. Ok. He already was because he was fast. The problem, though, wasn't that the scout sucked or that he wasn't useful. HE WAS! The problem was that the medic was INSANELY over powered.

Pre 2.0 people typically ran 5v5's. In these 5v5's people ran 2 medics, or a medic and a demoman, the vast majority of the time. At some point people also started playing 4v4's and people ran four medics or three medics and a demoman the vast majority of the time. More often than not people ran 2/4 medics because it was better.

People didn't run the scout because the medic had the following traits:

• The ability to overheal his allies (removed)
• Nailgun that fired faster than it should have (changed)
• Only slightly less speed than the scout (the same)
• The slippery ground physics of the game (removed, a nerf to the scout as well, but it exaggerated the speed of the medic to the point where there was no need for the extra speed a scout provided)
• I'm sure there's something else here that I'm missing that was removed, changed, or revamped about the medic...

It's very self evident why the scout wasn't used. However, instead of addressing these things in the 2.0 patch by nerfing the medic and changing the physics around, the dev team deemed it a great idea to introduce the jump pad. And so it was. And so here are some consequences:

• AvD completely neutered. Maps like dustbowl no longer playable. Maps and game modes have to be DESIGNED around the inclusion of this tool.
• Heavy offensive classes no longer have a health penalty for crossing the yard in a hurry. I.E. full health demomen running in to the enemy base at a fraction of the time.
• At the time, because of design oversight, it was highly exploitable. It still is.
• Maps have to be designed specifically with the jump pad in mind. Current maps like monkey impacted heavily by it. As a personal note, Monkey was my favorite map pre 2.0. It is now my least favorite map.
• Jump pads could be used to negate a maps design. I.E. putting a jump pad at, or near a choke point. Now any class can get past that choke point with little to no problem.
• Little to no use for a defensive player to use a jump pad in AvD or CTF. Only really relevant in defending against a push styled ending in an AvD map, but then a defensive jump pad highly favors the defense because their return time from death, already being insanely low due to the specific design and function of the game mode, is decreased disproportionately more than the benefit an offense gets from an offensive jump pad.

There are many more, but the only benefit to including the jump pad is:

• Scout is used 90% of the time in CTF and AvD.*

* Quick edit: This is absolutely irrelevant because the game was the very definition of being playably unplayable.

The game went from functioning fine to not functioning fine all in the name of 'balance'.

Mind you, there have been other changes that have been taken for granted but have still had a marked outcome on the game. Things like increasing fall damage. The only class impacted is the scout. A medic will just regenerate that health. Why even include it? Why not just lower the scouts health by an average of 8? Again, done 'in the name of X'.

I mean, why don't we have teleporters in the game? "SO EXPLOITABLE!" No, that's not the reason why. You can design something to not be as exploitable and you can patch it after things happen. The reason we don't have teleporters in the game is because we don't want heavy classes on offense. We don't want to see heavy weapons guys appearing suddenly with full health in an enemy base.

So what makes it O.K. design to give the scout something that functions as a lesser teleport just so he gets played? Why not give the scout something that only impacts him and makes it function as a true buff instead of some over-arching net offense buff that has had a dramatic impact on more than just the scouts playability?

Mind you, a lot of the negative things that happened as a result of the jump pad were simply oversights and then the dev team sort of disbanded and then others took over and all was well... but then the jump pad was never removed and then attempts were made to balance the game around it just for the sake of saying 'hey guys, we have this brand new feature that TFC doesn't have, come check us out!'

Everything about this infernal fucking thing was handled wrong. I'm not saying intentions weren't in the right place, because everything was intended to be great. It's just that that piece of crap is the very reason FF died hard after the competitive season that 2.0 came out during. It's the reason I've quit over and over and over again. It's the reason there were tons (relatively speaking for FF of course) of people complaining that AvD was completely FUBAR thanks to this thing.

Just nothing good about it.

I'm tired as hell of managing expectations of what such-and-such class should do based on how people have played them in the past. Those arguments don't interest me.

Ok. Then why not make the pyro shoot laser beams when you +attack2 when you have his flamethrower out? There's a reason the scout in TF2 functions as the fastest class in the game. His design philosophy wasn't changed, the core of the game was.

The jump pad changed the scouts design philosophy when there was never anything wrong with the design philosophy. It was a change for the sake of change. That was the problem with it. Also the fact that it literally assed up the entire game to the point where, after 2.0, the competitive scene completely died because of it. And that's not some weird correlation between two events. That is the reason for it happening. It was discussed here pretty heavily as well as on IRC and in game.

[squeek.]

I didn't read your whole post, Credge, because your premises are false.

Originally Posted by Credge

The design behind it was to make the scout useful.

The design was to make movement more accessible and to make other classes more useful.

Here is an excerpt from the original post that sparked the jump pad:

Constructible jump pads or something could be alot of fun, and mostly useful for reducing midfield traversal time and open up an opportunity for heavier classes to make more of an impact on a defense.

Pre 2.0 people typically ran 5v5's. In these 5v5's people ran 2 medics, or a medic and a demoman, the vast majority of the time. At some point people also started playing 4v4's and people ran four medics or three medics and a demoman the vast majority of the time. More often than not people ran 2/4 medics because it was better.

Pre-2.0? Where are you getting this info from? I remember an early league in FF's history, but I don't remember much about it (TFC clans played in it and it died pretty quickly?). I don't even think it was 5v5? Even if what you say is true, I'm guessing that was just carryover from TFC, as FF was only just released when that league was active.

Once #ff.pickup started, multiple scout O was common, even before 2.0 was released.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

All soldiers and one scout to build a jump pad? AvD is a bad example because there are no concs. Soldier has few weaknesses. Do you think they are overpowered? How would you make them less useful on offense?

I don't think he's overpowered actually, I think he plays about like he does in TFC and is fine in and of himself. I think the problem is he no longer has counters and focusing on making him LESS useful is a bad idea. In TFC defense was stronger so you had more classes that could really cut his ass down so an all-soldier offense wasn't practical there. You say soldier has few weaknesses. That's true, so in TFC and old FF that problem was solved by having a class like engineer or hwguy that was so strong it could overcome almost any weakness, but simultaneously having bigger vulnerabilities that weren't present in solider either. Both hwguys and sentries lack range and mobility. Sentries are furthermore very vulnerable under the right circumstances. Thus, you would get classes like spy and sniper actually being very valuable counters to the units that could shred soldiers. There were many more balances going on. For every powerful unit in a specific situation, there were at least 1 or 2 counters to it. I don't think FF has a solid counter to the soldier as a class anymore. Sure there are a million ways to handle ONE soldier, but an entire team of them? In TFC that was manageable, in FF it's not.

Also if you have to say "AvD is a bad example", for the mixed class formula that should be a warning sign right there that something's not working.

Originally Posted by Credge

On top of that, it assed up most of the game and now, instead of just removing the fucking thing we have spent some two years trying to balance the unforeseen consequences it has caused.

I think "unforeseen" is going a bit far.

Originally Posted by Credge

The whole 'sniper shoots somebody to the cap' or 'demoman blasts somebody to the cap' thing is a design oversight that completely undermines the point of the game mode and the jump pad just adds to this oversight.

That also takes coordination and cooperation (which I kind of think should be rewarded) and in most maps has limited use. The demoman has to get the timing right, the sniper has to line up his shot correctly, all while they're likely taking a lot of fire. Palermo is the only map I can think of where players sailing off into the air can really devastate defense on a regular basis. The jump pad has use in many more places.