Frag grenades

[own3r]

In tfc there is a skill in priming frag grenades and using them in combination with the weapons for the given class. I like this its quite good fun, but what I don't like is what it does for gameplay. Humour me for a minute, TFC with fewer or significantly weaker frag grenades might be quite cool. Frag grenades could be used to bolster weaker classes whereas already strong classes such as the soldier have no real need of them with a rocket laucher and super shotgun.

This would have a big affect on gameplay but I would be interested to know if the DEVS have thought about this, or even if they could test it out to see if it works.

This would definatly be a powerful ballancing method for the classes which to be honest are not ballanced in TFC.

[Ryu]

It'll definitely take some of the "spam" out of the game like they said they wanted to do.

Did they state if they're removing concs? I just re-read it quickly and all it takes about is how the Scout's doublejump is more effective than concing was.

-Ryu

[4est]

The Devs reduced the radius. Spamming won't be as affective. You'll need to have a target and be on target.

[mistermojo]

Originally Posted by Ryu

It'll definitely take some of the "spam" out of the game like they said they wanted to do.

Did they state if they're removing concs? I just re-read it quickly and all it takes about is how the Scout's doublejump is more effective than concing was.

-Ryu

Re-read it again, he mentions how when they removed "them" (concs) the game seemed better to them. He also doesn't mention concing at all when asked about it, saying that the doublejump is better for them

[Nezumi]

Ok, guys, the classes aren't all supposed to be balanced in terms of DMing ability. A soldier is SUPPOSED to be able to beat up most other classes most of the time. The issue is that all classes should be usefull. In TFC, the sniper wasn't played in clan games and the pyro wasn't played at all.

If the reduced grenade radius rewards people being more accurate with their grenades than that suits me just fine.

[AmazingNurseEnrique]

Originally Posted by STA_SirTiger

What are you talking about...........

FORTRESS FOREVER = FREE REMAKE OF TFC FOR SOURCE ENGINE WITH MODS, DONE BY THE FF TEAM

TF2 CRAP GAME THAT IS BEING DEVELOPED BY VALVE

FF will NOT do the same mistake and remove concing sir.......that's TF2 . Anyways you did not say anything about them removing....but you did get get TF2's article mixed up with this mod. Definately no, double jumping is not more effective than concing.

Concs = Gold = Life = TFC or it aint shit

Simply put, you're wrong. Concing and grenades is not what makes a Fortress game a Fortress game. They are part of what made TFC what it was, but it is not core to newer renditions, and is certainly a feature that can be discarded or adjusted if you build around it.

Excuse me if I'm a bit harsh, but your view is narrow, short-sighted, and shows you don't understand a thing about game design. Taking what you liked to do out of the game doesn't make the game worse -- it simply means you need to adapt and learn a new skillset to survive within a new game. Yes, FF decided to go with the classic staples of primary/secondary grenade mechanic, but assuming this makes or breaks either FF or TF2 is a ludicrous statement.

TFC had a lot of bad or sub-optimal mechanics that lessons can be learned from. Conc jumping is fun, yes, I agree, but so is the idea of classes that fight in completely different ways, By removing the higher-damage grenade capabilities of the lighter classes, you can achieve this more easily. EMPs alone made Engineers much more combat-worthy than intended, as did frags on medics. The two solutions to adjust the game in a more role-driven direction is to lower the effectiveness of these or remove the mechanic entirely to try something else that could prove fun also.

Did you remember original TF's release? No one understood conc jumping or anything, that stuff really wasn't designed in the game, it was part of an emergent strategy that formed as the game and players matured into the community. These things will exist in nearly any game that requires skill. For example, maybe in a new fortress game, a light class could more readily jump off of another soldier's rocket, or you can use sticky bombs on walls to make a ladder and hop your way up to otherwise unreachable places.

I don't expect everyone to go "Wow TT2 looks great," but I do expect people to think about their statements as why a game is good or bad instead of maintaining a short-sighted view that they have to learn a new game and new tricks, and that it sucks.

So, let me leave you with this: assuming a new game takes skill to play and is based on Fortress, how does the lack of concs or grenades in general make it worse? And, if you're looking for original TF mechanics, why are you looking towards new games when TFC still has servers up?

[unf]

tl;dr

[snakeater]

It's difficult to say if grenades should be slimmed or restricted in some way; it's true that if you go on ANY TFC server, there are millions of nades being spammed everwhere whereever you go, yet surely that's just part of TF, wouldn't be the same without explosions going off every 5 seconds

Probably best to leave the nades unrestricted and see how people play; if nade spamming becomes a problem, it's always something that can be looked into I'm sure.

[Nezumi]

I agree with a lot of your statement, but

Originally Posted by AmazingNurseEnrique

how does the lack of concs or grenades in general make it worse?

Because then we can't throw grenades. It's not hard to understand. It's possible that whatever other positive changes they make will outweigh any changes that I may not like, but it's a fact that I like throwing grenades.

[AmazingNurseEnrique]

Originally Posted by Nezumi

I agree with a lot of your statement, but


Because then we can't throw grenades. It's not hard to understand. It's possible that whatever other positive changes they make will outweigh any changes that I may not like, but it's a fact that I like throwing grenades.

I do too, you're right in that it doesn't make the -game- worse, but can detract from a single individual's enjoyment of that game. I think the statement "I really enjoy grenade combat" is fine, but saying that the lack of them makes a game worse from a design or balance standpoint is what I have a problem with.

[Nezumi]

I think 'worse' is a terrible word to use. To me a game is worse than another game if it's less fun than that game, subjectively, while at the same time the more fun game may have worse balance, objectively.

In any case, I don't think anyone will deny that Valve is making TF2 more noob friendly than TFC. This doesn't mean better balance, necessarily, but from my point of view it seems likely that it will make the game less fun in many ways. Being fun, being balanced, and being appealing to a wide audience are all distinct and worthwhile goals that will often conflict. If TF2 appeals to a very broad audience but isn't as fun as TFC (in my opinion), then that's bad for me but good for valve. If it's both, then everyone wins. Chances are there will be things I like about TF2 but grenade priming is one of my favorite game mechanics in ANY game.

[id_]

Originally Posted by own3r

In tfc there is a skill in priming frag grenades and using them in combination with the weapons for the given class. I like this its quite good fun, but what I don't like is what it does for gameplay. Humour me for a minute, TFC with fewer or significantly weaker frag grenades might be quite cool. Frag grenades could be used to bolster weaker classes whereas already strong classes such as the soldier have no real need of them with a rocket laucher and super shotgun.

This would have a big affect on gameplay but I would be interested to know if the DEVS have thought about this, or even if they could test it out to see if it works.

This would definatly be a powerful ballancing method for the classes which to be honest are not ballanced in TFC.

classes arent intended to be balanced in fortress mods. youll not very often catch a scout able to DM a soldier, likewise youll not likely catch an HW that is as effective at making flag runs as the scout. whats important is that the classes perform their roles appropriately.

EDIT: oh hello there Nezumi, for some reason i completely skipped over your post :X

[Dospac]

Normal grenade radius is smaller and there will generally be fewer about. Will do the trick, we hope.

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by Dospac

Normal grenade radius is smaller and there will generally be fewer about. Will do the trick, we hope.

Generally be fewer about in the official FF maps though, right? That doesn't stop a custom map designer from placing grenades all over the place, unless the number of grenades you can carry is dropped.

[SilentButDeadly]

Originally Posted by Dospac

Normal grenade radius is smaller and there will generally be fewer about. Will do the trick, we hope.

Cool, I was really hoping you guys would do this.

As far as TF2 goes, I think a lot of people here are being biased. I would love to have two different gameplays of a fortress style game to play on. (FF being the new and improved TFC that we all know and love, and TF2 being a new style of Fortress in all aspects.) Would you really want the same game made with the only difference being the graphics? If I got tired of one, I could go play the other.

I think that some of the changes that they have made will make it a pretty fun game. I am also a little disappointed with the fact that they did take out conc grenades, but that is because back in the day when I played on a 56k AOL connection I could actually stay offline and play conc maps for hours. I am sure that there will still be skill maps in the game to play though. Oh man those were the days, wow that brings back some memories...

[SmellyCat]

Oh damn, hadn't heard about concs being taken out in TF2. What nades do the scout/medic have instead?

[Formaldehyde]

None. Awesome huh?

[IvaQuaL]

Originally Posted by Dospac

Normal grenade radius is smaller and there will generally be fewer about. Will do the trick, we hope.

Thank god.

[own3r]

Originally Posted by Dospac

Normal grenade radius is smaller and there will generally be fewer about. Will do the trick, we hope.

Good to hear, if the spam is really bad then cull the ammount which can be held a bit.

[Dospac]

The default nade bags give 2/1, we haven't changed any classes gren capacities. Not saying we won't if the need arises though.