Team Fortress 2

[episkopos]

http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=1687161

Maybe if Team Fortress 2's feature creep gets to a certain point, FF might not look so bad.

On a more serious note, this is why FF needs a good tutorial.

[Bridget]

Team Fortress 2's beginner integration is intimidating because the game offers so much. Fortress Forever's beginner integration is intimidating because the game offers so much unintuitive bullshit. In Team Fortress 2, the standard is pretty low. Doing something like a Rocket Jump is exceptional due to its difficulty. In Fortress Forever, difficult mechanics are not exceptional. They are accepted as the standard. This is why people don't give two shits about playing this game. It's purposely difficult to appeal to people who think they're pros because they grow a tolerance to bad design choices. It's really comparing apples to oranges.

[stray kitten]

TF2 Rocket Jump
Aim down, jump/fire rocket, direction you go depends on movement speed and angle of projectile along with splash effect from in game objects.

FF Rocket Jump
Aim down, jump/fire rocket, direction you go depends on movement speed and angle of projectile along with splash effect from in game objects.

Exceptional?

The timing is a little harder in TF2 to be consistent plus you take more damage until you get a damage reduction item. Wait I wouldn't say harder, just different. They do use different engines after all.

just sayin' However the main point of this thread is missing. New FF players aren't pros. Any assistance that can receive to enjoy the game is welcome. Any good game on the market comes with a tutorial to orient the new player to the environment. In fact it's not just considered standard. It's now expected and reviews of the game can suffer within the industry when it's lacking or not sufficient.

[Raynian]

Bridget's probably QQing about stuff like bhop and conc jumps again - things which are OMGSOHARD to do.

Yep, hold down space (or jump queue if you want) and strafe+turn the mouse. It was a lot harder in TFC, but in FF it's so easy you can teach a newbie how to do decently well in 10 minutes, provided there's a tutorial.

Which we need, of course.

Concing is easy as well when you have a tutorial (jump as your conc goes off - for added boost, swing your mouse like a baseball bat!), as is trimping and and other movement skills.

Honestly learning all the shit in TF2 is aggravating as hell, but nowhere near the frustration of having to GET all of it. There's a huge skill curve in TF2 I see all the time. Experienced players will rock the shit out of pubs, and I have no clue how they manage it. Clearly there must be SOMETHING to strive for. I'm certain newbies to FF get the same feeling, but at least the barrier isn't "you can't do this until you play 500 hours or spend $50", it's instead "you can't do this until you ask someone how to do it (or watch a tutorial)".

I'd go with FF's style any day of the week.

[Crazycarl]

The only problem I have with TF2's unlocks is with the spy. It's confusing as hell until you figure out exactly what gear the spy is using, and then if your team doesn't catch on you're still screwed.

FF's problem is we are balancing the game specifically for skilled players and the skills they've been honing for years. I mean, if we assume that people can reliably circle sentries and conc scoop the flag, and we buff defense with that in mind, we risk making things prohibitively hard for new players. You should be able to play without ever bhopping or aircontrolling, just less effectively.

[Majesty]

I like FF, although my dev tag is like wearing an FF t-shirt, I initially enjoyed it. There are so many good players and not so many on my level which I consider intermediate: I can RJ/ Bhop/ Conc, etc, but I'm still learning the ins and outs of the levels. The main cause of displeasure is getting ratios like 20 to 1 because of bastards like skeed, chef, elmo, to name a few. Elmo telling me he is bored of medic because he played it for 8 years, lol. My jaw dropped and I thought of soul calibur's intensive learning curve.

TF2's new items did feel refreshing. Now after reading the OP's thread about TF2 items, I'm somewhat intrigued as every solution seems to create some type of problem, eventually. Although, the ops friend quitting after 3 hours seems a bit, well, lame. I agree with the points about MMO(item based games/my loot is better than your loot)-- an aspect that shouldn't be in TF2.

The thing is, whether we like it or not, most of the gaming population are not very good at gaming. Movement has become drastically simplistic to accommodate new gamers and the console controllers. And now adept gamers(oldschool PC gamers) have to wait for the rest of society to play catch up. Halo(crouch), COD(sprinting/proning), Black Ops (leaping), Mirrors Edge(parkour), Brink (Combines black ops, mirrors edge, TF). It seems console games are progressing, but then what happens when the next generation of players who pick up the controller and can't understand what to do? Thoughts?

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

The only problem I have with TF2's unlocks is with the spy. It's confusing as hell until you figure out exactly what gear the spy is using, and then if your team doesn't catch on you're still screwed.

FF's problem is we are balancing the game specifically for skilled players and the skills they've been honing for years. I mean, if we assume that people can reliably circle sentries and conc scoop the flag, and we buff defense with that in mind, we risk making things prohibitively hard for new players. You should be able to play without ever bhopping or aircontrolling, just less effectively.

Have you ever considered that new players might not have a rough time learning how to play? I learned to play TFC all those years ago just by playing and learning how the game works. What ever happened to that? I think a training map is probably the best way to give newcomers an idea just how complex and exciting this game can be.