More Intuitive Bunnyhop

[Bridget]

I decided to watch the Fortress Fortress video displayed on the front page yet again. It did what I would expect it to do, it made me what to play Fortress Forever again. However, it only did that because I felt familiar with the movement (granted I was never good) and it was more a yearning to play again because I missed it. I decided to read the comments on the YouTube page and here are some samples:

Bunny Hopping Forever? ADHD Forever?

Bunny-hop forever? Ugh, and people wonder why TF2 is preferred over this. It's just a friggin game about bunny hopping.

This looks like a ridiculous game, bunny hopping everywhere...

ridiculous as in, " there's no fucking way i could learn how to do that!!"

I liked tfc, played FF but felt like I was playing a UT2k4 mod so much jumping

Before you get all elitist and start screaming "Har these nubs no no how 2 da bunny hop do 'cause they is da nubscrubz ha ha I am so good at da FF pownzin' you till da sun comin' upz" stfu and consider what they are saying. These are people considering the game, but are turned off by.. oddly enough.. the same thing. Then again, being fair, they didn't see much in that video. Only bunnyhopping. Bad choice, I think, but meh.

I don't think these people have a problem with bunnyhopping, just that they know, from past experience and its reputation, that it will be difficult or unintuitive to learn. They figure it draws a big line in the sand and generates "x vs y" and unbalances the game. In a sense, it does. I argued once that bunnyhop was a trade off movement, but I didn't realise, yes.. it is.. for the person who knows how to bunnyhop. The person who can bunnyhop does have an advantage. The game becomes 'oldbies vs newbies' and guess who wins? And guess who quits and never comes back?

Oddly enough, I have to agree with Tantrum (I dunno if he has a forum name here) and say that I think bunny hopping should be removed. With concussion grenades, nade jumping, flamethrower jetpacking, jump pads, railgun jumps, and all that shit why do you need another means of advanced movement? Radical position, but I'm beginning to see why he thinks that way, and I think removal of bhop or restricting it so it wasn't so powerful would attract a lot of new players. Realistically, we'd lose perhaps as many players as we'd gain. So, to appeal to both sides, bunnyhop should stay in game, but it should be made more intuitive. How do you think that should be done?

Auto-jump removes an unnecessary step. Bunnyhop is about, as Squeek pointed out, air control not about timing jumps. However, even learning to strafe properly can be a daunting task. It's not a "Well of course you have to learn how to bunnyhop, like you learn how to shoot or grab the flag" situation but more of "Here's the primitive way bunnyhopping was done. We have learned to deal with it, as oldbies, and instead of thinking of more intuitive ways to do it, we expect you to learn the primitive way too." deal.

Do you think FF should incorporate some sort of Warsow-esse jump system that allows players to hold down forward+jump and steer using the mouse while allowing the old system too, to possibly appeal to both sides of the 'community table'? Or, if not, how would you do things?

[Chainhit]

I assure you I will stop playing if bunny hop is removed. This is all. Do you actually WANT those people in your game?

With the new bunny hop script it is easier then ever too. Why do you care so much if they play or not?

[Bridget]

There is no 'bunny hop script.

[GeoKill----->]

Well with ff_training that Squeek is "working on" it is going to help so much. As Squeek mention before, bhop is all about air control and the last time I played training, squeek had a section dedicated to air control which is basicaly low gravity...

If you want to practice with air control, lower gravity to... not sure how much, Kube knows how much but you really understand how air controls works under low gravity then bhop is a brease.

[squeek.]

There are 4 or 5 stages about air control in training.

[Hawk Eye]

I've always used 0 gravity to explain air control to my friends.

There was somewhat of an issue with Warsow's Forward+Jump movement, though. IIRC, the Forward + Jump was capable of making much sharper turns than the traditional style, making any players who changed to this easier form of movement an advantage. Not sure how something like that would affect FF.

So damnit, lets get training.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Do you think FF should incorporate some sort of Warsow-esse jump system that allows players to hold down forward+jump and steer using the mouse while allowing the old system too, to possibly appeal to both sides of the 'community table'? Or, if not, how would you do things?

Basically the way it works is that yes, you hold +forward and hold jump and just mouse about. You can go fast and generally have tighter handling given your mouse sens is up to the task. However, its speed is capped and you cant reach the same speeds as a skilled player using cg_oldMovement 1 (the old movement is kept intact in a time controlled cvar) too. on a note, new movement has been the biggest source of whine in the community i can think of since we added CA and instagib to Warsow, causing quite a split for a while. I dont really see how this would fit into FF, everything seems to be getting slowed down anyway. maybe simplifying the existing auto-jump strafe speeds a bit would suffice for newer players.

I guess my point is I'm not a fan of having two movement systems that was a terrible idea etc. I'd rather the movement simplified and deal with vets who are bitter that depth has been removed

[Ostrich_Eggs]

How many limbs do you have to chop off before the game is accessible? Bunnyhopping adds depth and replayability. Advanced movement in general adds depth and replayability. You're dancing on a razor's edge when it comes to pandering to the lowest denominator, especially after building up a base of fervent and competitive players.

I love the changes to jumping but I don't think I could support any more than that.

I'm all for helping out noobs. I help noobs every chance I get, I'm BEGGING to help them and if they talk to me I usually make them stay. But when it comes to butchering the game just to get more people to play? no thanks. Work with what ya got.

[gibz]

Bunnyhopping is mostly about air control, which is difficult to explain in a video.
I can't wait for ff_training.

[Carrots]

dont make bhop any easier than it already is

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

I could support two different methods of achieving bunnyhop: one new and "intuitive," and the other being the old way. However, they would have to produce the same results and give the same kind of movement.

I think a better solution would probably be to get the training map out the door and just leave the bunnyhop as it is...