The Definition Of Balanced

o_mikequist · 07-03-2006, 04:18 PM

I've been thinking about this recently, and I think I've come up with some interesting stuff after some discussion with many other players and mappers.

The Definition of Balanced

A goal that many mappers strive for when we design our maps is balance. This can mean many things, and even it's most strict description can be interpreted in many ways by many different people. But for the most part, it's assumed to be when a map has the perfect cap ratio. For example, one could say that Openfire and Monkey are balanced (although I tend to think that they tend to sway towards Offense and Defense, respectively). Not "too many" caps but not "too little".

So we try to replicate, yes? We try to build a map that has this many entrances in to a flag room. Or we build a map that has perfectly placed respawns. And in effect we almost end up rebuilding 2fort except mirrored in the other direction, or dustbowl but with a different theme. And that is where I think we, as a mapping community, go wrong.

By focusing on replication rather than originality... by concentrating on abiding by strict guidelines and formulas for our maps...we allow ourselves to stifle our talent and artwork, and in effect our community.

Is it really that awful if a team is able to cap 30 times in one round? Or if a team can only cap once? Shrouding the truth with a veil of pressure from our peers and community is a resounding yes. But honestly, logically, and in our hearts which whisper to us "Build that CTF map which consists of two obscenely large towers connected by narrow bridges," we know that No, it is not awful if the score ratio changes.

It's important for everybody to realize this. Not just the mappers, but the community. Leagues need to be willing to try maps that present more gameplay. Too long have our league clans been satisfied with this "Cap Compromise" which consists of playing maps where the teams will cap and kill about the same each game. Defenses need to be willing to kill less sometimes, and likewise offenses need to be willing to sacrifice a cap fest.

So what does this mean for mappers?

Don't let your creativity be ruined by some pretense. The best maps are the original ones. Wells yard was original at one time, as was the entire concept of Attack/Defend. Congestus presented something new and the masses loved it.So expand your mind and sketchpad. If you can dream it, you can play it, and that's all anybody is here to do.

o_ghost · 07-03-2006, 04:30 PM

People are going to enjoy maps that are fun to play. Sure, you could make it so 1 cap is the norm but people who play offense won't want to play the map. On the flip side if you make it so 30 caps is the norm people on D may not want to play it. People want to feel effective. You just can't feel effective if there's no hope at all of holding a flag or capping a flag.

That's not to say you can't be original and make a "balanced" map. Not every map is an openfire/monkey clone in TFC. In the end the player base will decide if the map is playable or not.

o_mikequist · 07-03-2006, 04:35 PM

See. That's the attitude I'm talking about.

A player automatically feels inneffective. We set up these maps so we can basically feel like were important.

I can do that easily. I can build a really small hallway and that soldier, no matter his skill level, is going to feel pretty damn useful taking out the offense one by one.

It's just that we have allowed ourselves to get use to ONE setting. And we are simply afraid or ashamed if that ratio is changed.

o_own3r · 07-03-2006, 06:35 PM

i have to admit i hate maps which stalemate, with the defence able to lock their base down. In my opinion no base should be very easy to defend as lets face it most of the team is on defence anyway so they dont need it made easy. Offence by contrast is a lesser proportion usually and mostly light classes so routes need to cross/link and be quite direct so they stand a chance of out-whiting and out-running the enemy.

o_mikequist · 07-03-2006, 08:38 PM

Why? It's all in our heads.

o_sokrateas · 07-03-2006, 10:00 PM

I'm all for originality. However, the truth is and always will be with CTF type games is that they need to hold this formula. New maps truthfully only really change aesthetically with some minor differences. Leagues love these maps because all of these players have mastered one style of game play. Throw a league player on Moon Cheese (which someone should re-make) and they cant do shit, which is why leagues will never adapt to these custom maps.

On another note though, there are die hard pub server players like myself who get extremely excited when you need to download a new map, and that map ends up having some crazy concept. It's hilarious when a pub full of 32 players come on and half of them don't read the map info for this brand new map they've never played before. Well anyway, I'm not really going anywhere with this except to say that you should be watching out for my map ff_advantage which is about 45% complete right now, which will introduce a new style of gameplay. The hardest thing about this map is that I'm trying to keep the map somewhat balanced, but have this slight weighting for the team that has the advantage at the time. Anyhow, if you're really interested, about 5 months ago I posted my concept, it has changed a bit since then, but check it out. http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ead.php?t=4148

07-03-2006, 04:18 PM	#1
o_mikequist Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tampa Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The Definition Of Balanced I've been thinking about this recently, and I think I've come up with some interesting stuff after some discussion with many other players and mappers. The Definition of Balanced A goal that many mappers strive for when we design our maps is balance. This can mean many things, and even it's most strict description can be interpreted in many ways by many different people. But for the most part, it's assumed to be when a map has the perfect cap ratio. For example, one could say that Openfire and Monkey are balanced (although I tend to think that they tend to sway towards Offense and Defense, respectively). Not "too many" caps but not "too little". So we try to replicate, yes? We try to build a map that has this many entrances in to a flag room. Or we build a map that has perfectly placed respawns. And in effect we almost end up rebuilding 2fort except mirrored in the other direction, or dustbowl but with a different theme. And that is where I think we, as a mapping community, go wrong. By focusing on replication rather than originality... by concentrating on abiding by strict guidelines and formulas for our maps...we allow ourselves to stifle our talent and artwork, and in effect our community. Is it really that awful if a team is able to cap 30 times in one round? Or if a team can only cap once? Shrouding the truth with a veil of pressure from our peers and community is a resounding yes. But honestly, logically, and in our hearts which whisper to us "Build that CTF map which consists of two obscenely large towers connected by narrow bridges," we know that No, it is not awful if the score ratio changes. It's important for everybody to realize this. Not just the mappers, but the community. Leagues need to be willing to try maps that present more gameplay. Too long have our league clans been satisfied with this "Cap Compromise" which consists of playing maps where the teams will cap and kill about the same each game. Defenses need to be willing to kill less sometimes, and likewise offenses need to be willing to sacrifice a cap fest. So what does this mean for mappers? Don't let your creativity be ruined by some pretense. The best maps are the original ones. Wells yard was original at one time, as was the entire concept of Attack/Defend. Congestus presented something new and the masses loved it.So expand your mind and sketchpad. If you can dream it, you can play it, and that's all anybody is here to do.

07-03-2006, 04:30 PM	#2
o_ghost Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	People are going to enjoy maps that are fun to play. Sure, you could make it so 1 cap is the norm but people who play offense won't want to play the map. On the flip side if you make it so 30 caps is the norm people on D may not want to play it. People want to feel effective. You just can't feel effective if there's no hope at all of holding a flag or capping a flag. That's not to say you can't be original and make a "balanced" map. Not every map is an openfire/monkey clone in TFC. In the end the player base will decide if the map is playable or not.

07-03-2006, 04:35 PM	#3
o_mikequist Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tampa Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	See. That's the attitude I'm talking about. A player automatically feels inneffective. We set up these maps so we can basically feel like were important. I can do that easily. I can build a really small hallway and that soldier, no matter his skill level, is going to feel pretty damn useful taking out the offense one by one. It's just that we have allowed ourselves to get use to ONE setting. And we are simply afraid or ashamed if that ratio is changed.

07-03-2006, 06:35 PM	#4
o_own3r Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i have to admit i hate maps which stalemate, with the defence able to lock their base down. In my opinion no base should be very easy to defend as lets face it most of the team is on defence anyway so they dont need it made easy. Offence by contrast is a lesser proportion usually and mostly light classes so routes need to cross/link and be quite direct so they stand a chance of out-whiting and out-running the enemy.

07-03-2006, 08:38 PM	#5
o_mikequist Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tampa Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Why? It's all in our heads.

07-03-2006, 10:00 PM	#6
o_sokrateas Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I'm all for originality. However, the truth is and always will be with CTF type games is that they need to hold this formula. New maps truthfully only really change aesthetically with some minor differences. Leagues love these maps because all of these players have mastered one style of game play. Throw a league player on Moon Cheese (which someone should re-make) and they cant do shit, which is why leagues will never adapt to these custom maps. On another note though, there are die hard pub server players like myself who get extremely excited when you need to download a new map, and that map ends up having some crazy concept. It's hilarious when a pub full of 32 players come on and half of them don't read the map info for this brand new map they've never played before. Well anyway, I'm not really going anywhere with this except to say that you should be watching out for my map ff_advantage which is about 45% complete right now, which will introduce a new style of gameplay. The hardest thing about this map is that I'm trying to keep the map somewhat balanced, but have this slight weighting for the team that has the advantage at the time. Anyhow, if you're really interested, about 5 months ago I posted my concept, it has changed a bit since then, but check it out. http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ead.php?t=4148

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