let the battle begin...

o_puppychow · 02-25-2006, 01:33 PM

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.../60224007/1001

boy, South Dakota wasted no time to see what would happen with the new makeup of the supreme court.......

o_yomamashouse · 02-25-2006, 02:22 PM

Why are these people so driven to stop abortion. Abortion is doing everyone a favor. If the mothers arent ready to handle the job then they should be able to have the kid aborted to save everyone a lot of trouble. Those stupid bastards aren't saving lives they are ruining them. They think that all that matters is that something IS alive as opposed to it enjoying beying alive. They probably are the same people who would outlaw assisted suicide in hospitals, because that way the person is alive, no matter that they are suffering and are in excruciating pain, they are alive...

o_frenchtoast · 02-25-2006, 02:53 PM

I guess I can understand not wanting to kill something, but the thing is that a child in a womb doesn't have a conscious, isn't even alive really. Your earliest memories aren't when you're in a womb, so who the fuck cares if you die?

o_tennovan · 02-25-2006, 03:31 PM

This will always be a touchy subject but what is the law right now... abortion before 3 months in? I don't believe the baby actually starts to form until after 3 months but there is one general problem I pulled from your statement, FT...

If it "isn't even alive really" then other laws need to be changed to reflect that. If a man kills a pregnant woman, he can be charged with both murders and so there's a general conflict of beliefs within lawmakers.

Now here's the problem I have with all this: Why are people trying to get abortions outlawed? Because its wrong? There are so many things "wrong" to one person but "right" to another and they're not trying to get these LEGALLY changed. If you believe having an abortion means going to hell, then let people make these mistakes. Trying to have something legally changed is probably less affective than informing people about their options. There are too many pregnant 15 year olds and women raped in this country to sit back and totally do away with abortion I think. I worked at the hospital for too many years and saw too many lives ruined because "My mom tuld mee dat I kant have a aborshun so Ima gonna raise this ding myself"... Good luck with that lil Ms. 15 year old. Hopefully your kid will graduate in time to make it to yours also.

o_uber · 02-25-2006, 03:44 PM

Many of these lawmakers are ignorant about the facts of abortion. They primarly base their decisions on what their religion has taught them. There's nothing wrong by making decisions based on morals that a religion may have taught you. However, I believe scientific data ought to outweigh those conjectures. Moreover, our world overpopulated. Not making abortions legal in SD won't increase that overpopulation terribly, but if other states/nations follow suite it could become an even more growing problem. Women ought to have every right to decide whether they wish to have a baby or not, albeit their responsibility to avoid pregnancy if they choose the latter, too.

o_yomamashouse · 02-25-2006, 05:31 PM

Good thing Canada isn't heading that way anytime soon. The advantage of having a shitload of religions is that one religion can't overstep it's authority(which is barely existent in the first place) and make laws based off it. When church and state are closely bonded, you turn into the Middle East.

o_sobe green · 02-25-2006, 06:14 PM

The biggest problem you'll have with making it illegal is that many teens and pre/early age teens will find "generic ways" as in not so professional doctors to do it anyway just so their parents don't find out. I'm not even going to get into the negative side effects there.

I'm not for or against it. I'm a guy so as far as I'm concerned I don't think I have a say so in the matter. If I got a girl knocked up though I'd rather her have the kid but it isn't up to the guy.

o_tennovan · 02-25-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

I'm not for or against it. I'm a guy so as far as I'm concerned I don't think I have a say so in the matter. If I got a girl knocked up though I'd rather her have the kid but it isn't up to the guy.

I think if you're married to a woman, you definitely have a say. Now if you just got a girl knocked up and you're not married, thats a totally different story. I'm not very knowledgable when it comes to stuff like this but you don't have to claim a kid is yours right? I'm pretty sure you can take no responsibility for it if options like an abortion are available.

o_mescalito · 02-25-2006, 06:48 PM

There's this thing that called DNA test ya know... It's not hard nowdays to verify who's the father.
Besides, what's the article talking about? Forbbiding abortion after 3 month of pregnancy or no abortion at any circumstances?

o_tennovan · 02-25-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mescalito

There's this thing that called DNA test ya know... It's not hard nowdays to verify who's the father.

When I talked about a man claiming a child, it had nothing to do "Are you the real father?" but rather "Do accept responsibility for this child?" I'm sure some of the older members (with children) can verify this but both my parents work at the hospital back home (mom - nurse, dad - xray tech) and I believe I've heard this said before.

For a man to refuse responsibility seems to be (to me) the same as when a woman has a baby then leaves it at the hospital. Its so sad when that happens but its legal (at least here in Texas).

o_mescalito · 02-25-2006, 07:14 PM

that's pretty fucked up

o_nezumi · 02-25-2006, 07:46 PM

There are 2 main reasons that I think abortion should be illegal at any point (after conception). First is that at conception, the embryo has it's own unique set of DNA which sets it entirely apart from either parent. The second is that at no point does the embryo/fetus share blood with the mother. This means that it is not 'part' of the mother. Every cell in the mothers and babies body can be differentiated.

I guess things are a bit different under certain circumstances, like rape, but we're not really talking about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrenchToats

I guess I can understand not wanting to kill something, but the thing is that a child in a womb doesn't have a conscious, isn't even alive really. Your earliest memories aren't when you're in a womb, so who the fuck cares if you die?

So by this logic you could kill babies uner a year old, as long as they haven't formed any permanent memories?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

I'm a guy so as far as I'm concerned I don't think I have a say so in the matter.

I disagree with this. Whether or not religion is involved it's still a moral issue and as such is of concern to everyone.

o_yomamashouse · 02-25-2006, 08:45 PM

Banning abortion would be like alcohol, you won't eliminate it. People will find their own way doing it, which like Sobe said would be quite harmful.

As far as the Embryo goes it has it's own dna but it's not really a person. You are not putting it through suffering by getting rid of it. Forcing a mother who may be really young or not prepared for the baby to take care of it is a horrible thing to do. Whenh Paul Martin said that Steve Harper was going to take awat a Woman's right to abort her future child i was worried because Harper won. Luckily it was all BS on Martin's part.

Circuitous · 02-25-2006, 09:12 PM

Even if abortion were to be outlawed, there's an alternative for the iconic 15-year-old mother that isn't ready to raise a child: put it up for adoption. At least then the kid's got a decent chance of being raised properly by someone capable of such.

Not that I'm against abortion - all for it, actually. But there are other options.

----------------

Crazy hypothesis time begins.

Wouldn't it be nifty keen if there were a reversable way to make people chemically infertile? That way they can't have children until they're ready to. No more stupid kids getting knocked up. No more stupid adults getting knocked up, if they can't prove they're ready.

Crazy hypothesis time ends.

o_yomamashouse · 02-25-2006, 09:42 PM

Ya it would be neat if you could impotate people to the point where only the injection of a certain hormone would repotate them, and only liscenced doctors could have that stuff.

o_frenchtoast · 02-25-2006, 10:26 PM

I worded my post wrong, where I said early memories I should have said something like a conscious or personality.

A born child has a personality, whereas a fetus is a lump of cells. Nothing more, really.

o_broodingdude · 02-26-2006, 02:38 AM

Hmm...

Abortion is okay when: the baby is a product of rape, the baby is going to die anyway, the parent(s) are unfit, the child won't have much of a chance at any kind of life from the parent's negligence.

It offends me to no end that people are trying to force women to bear the product of a rape. I think nurses (and doctors) will start smuggling 'morning after' pills regardless of the law. And if that's what it takes, I'll personally see to it that every hospital has a secret supply.

Fuck those 'pro life' bitches.

o_legacy · 02-26-2006, 02:58 AM

Many of a babies features develop withing weeks, not months as many people seem to think. Its very hard to quantify when a baby becomes alive, and then when does it become concious. I guess it all depends on how we determine what is life, but thats a whole other story.

Fetal development here!

Im far from being against abortions but theres a fine line to tread over who should be allowed them and when. Far too many stupid whores out there getting themselves pregnant, and then being able to get away with having it sucked out every time. I actually know a girl who's had 3 and you would have thought after the first she would have stopped being so moronic.

I'm going to stop now or im going to argue myself to death.

Lets just castrate people with an IQ lower than 80. That should reduce the number of abortions by half, slow population growth and improve the general level of intelligence all around.

[edit: link inserted]

o_nezumi · 02-26-2006, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

I worded my post wrong, where I said early memories I should have said something like a conscious or personality.

A born child has a personality, whereas a fetus is a lump of cells. Nothing more, really.

That's no argument at all.
Any living organism is a lump of cells. Personality is the product of a specific lump of cells: the brain.

A person, both physically and mentally, is entirely defined by their DNA and their experiences in life. Therefore their brain is too. Both of these things, DNA and experience, begin impacting a person at conception. (Which is true even if you don't think an embryo has 'life' or is a 'person'. I hate abortion debates because all the rhetoric on both sides presupposes way too much.) So why is having a personality any qualifier of whether or not something should/shouldn't be aborted, if what defines their personality is being shaped from the very begining?

And the prhohibition/abortion analogy doesn't work becase, according to me, drinking alcohol isn't immoral. Sure people would get illegal and frankly dangerous abortions if it was made illegal, but far fewer people would do so. Making it illegal would therefore, in my view, save lives overall.

So, in summary, adoption ftw.

o_puppychow · 02-26-2006, 04:03 AM

think of situations where responsible, mature people have sex, use a condom, are on birth control etc.....sometimes even with all that the female can still get pregnant..its not about 25 year old irrisponsible crack whores shagging the city block to get money for drugs.

i have been in situations where the condomn broke. next day she would get the morning after pill (thank god for that)...now, what if condom didnt break, all seemed fine, yet three weeks later she says she is pregnant?

No way am i havin that kid. not at this stage in my life.

02-25-2006, 01:33 PM	#1
o_puppychow Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Washington DC Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	let the battle begin... http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.../60224007/1001 boy, South Dakota wasted no time to see what would happen with the new makeup of the supreme court.......

02-25-2006, 09:12 PM	#14
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	Even if abortion were to be outlawed, there's an alternative for the iconic 15-year-old mother that isn't ready to raise a child: put it up for adoption. At least then the kid's got a decent chance of being raised properly by someone capable of such. Not that I'm against abortion - all for it, actually. But there are other options. ---------------- Crazy hypothesis time begins. Wouldn't it be nifty keen if there were a reversable way to make people chemically infertile? That way they can't have children until they're ready to. No more stupid kids getting knocked up. No more stupid adults getting knocked up, if they can't prove they're ready. Crazy hypothesis time ends. __________________ Look at all those dead links.

02-25-2006, 02:22 PM	#2
o_yomamashouse Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Your Mamas House Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Why are these people so driven to stop abortion. Abortion is doing everyone a favor. If the mothers arent ready to handle the job then they should be able to have the kid aborted to save everyone a lot of trouble. Those stupid bastards aren't saving lives they are ruining them. They think that all that matters is that something IS alive as opposed to it enjoying beying alive. They probably are the same people who would outlaw assisted suicide in hospitals, because that way the person is alive, no matter that they are suffering and are in excruciating pain, they are alive...

02-25-2006, 02:53 PM	#3
o_frenchtoast Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Markham, Ontario, Canada! Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I guess I can understand not wanting to kill something, but the thing is that a child in a womb doesn't have a conscious, isn't even alive really. Your earliest memories aren't when you're in a womb, so who the fuck cares if you die?

02-25-2006, 03:31 PM	#4
o_tennovan Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Texas Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	This will always be a touchy subject but what is the law right now... abortion before 3 months in? I don't believe the baby actually starts to form until after 3 months but there is one general problem I pulled from your statement, FT... If it "isn't even alive really" then other laws need to be changed to reflect that. If a man kills a pregnant woman, he can be charged with both murders and so there's a general conflict of beliefs within lawmakers. Now here's the problem I have with all this: Why are people trying to get abortions outlawed? Because its wrong? There are so many things "wrong" to one person but "right" to another and they're not trying to get these LEGALLY changed. If you believe having an abortion means going to hell, then let people make these mistakes. Trying to have something legally changed is probably less affective than informing people about their options. There are too many pregnant 15 year olds and women raped in this country to sit back and totally do away with abortion I think. I worked at the hospital for too many years and saw too many lives ruined because "My mom tuld mee dat I kant have a aborshun so Ima gonna raise this ding myself"... Good luck with that lil Ms. 15 year old. Hopefully your kid will graduate in time to make it to yours also.

02-25-2006, 03:44 PM	#5
o_uber Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Many of these lawmakers are ignorant about the facts of abortion. They primarly base their decisions on what their religion has taught them. There's nothing wrong by making decisions based on morals that a religion may have taught you. However, I believe scientific data ought to outweigh those conjectures. Moreover, our world overpopulated. Not making abortions legal in SD won't increase that overpopulation terribly, but if other states/nations follow suite it could become an even more growing problem. Women ought to have every right to decide whether they wish to have a baby or not, albeit their responsibility to avoid pregnancy if they choose the latter, too.

02-25-2006, 05:31 PM	#6
o_yomamashouse Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Your Mamas House Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Good thing Canada isn't heading that way anytime soon. The advantage of having a shitload of religions is that one religion can't overstep it's authority(which is barely existent in the first place) and make laws based off it. When church and state are closely bonded, you turn into the Middle East.

02-25-2006, 06:14 PM	#7
o_sobe green Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The biggest problem you'll have with making it illegal is that many teens and pre/early age teens will find "generic ways" as in not so professional doctors to do it anyway just so their parents don't find out. I'm not even going to get into the negative side effects there. I'm not for or against it. I'm a guy so as far as I'm concerned I don't think I have a say so in the matter. If I got a girl knocked up though I'd rather her have the kid but it isn't up to the guy.

02-25-2006, 06:48 PM	#9
o_mescalito Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Israel Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	There's this thing that called DNA test ya know... It's not hard nowdays to verify who's the father. Besides, what's the article talking about? Forbbiding abortion after 3 month of pregnancy or no abortion at any circumstances?

02-25-2006, 07:14 PM	#11
o_mescalito Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Israel Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	that's pretty fucked up

02-25-2006, 08:45 PM	#13
o_yomamashouse Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Your Mamas House Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Banning abortion would be like alcohol, you won't eliminate it. People will find their own way doing it, which like Sobe said would be quite harmful. As far as the Embryo goes it has it's own dna but it's not really a person. You are not putting it through suffering by getting rid of it. Forcing a mother who may be really young or not prepared for the baby to take care of it is a horrible thing to do. Whenh Paul Martin said that Steve Harper was going to take awat a Woman's right to abort her future child i was worried because Harper won. Luckily it was all BS on Martin's part.

02-25-2006, 09:42 PM	#15
o_yomamashouse Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Your Mamas House Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Ya it would be neat if you could impotate people to the point where only the injection of a certain hormone would repotate them, and only liscenced doctors could have that stuff.

02-25-2006, 10:26 PM	#16
o_frenchtoast Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Markham, Ontario, Canada! Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I worded my post wrong, where I said early memories I should have said something like a conscious or personality. A born child has a personality, whereas a fetus is a lump of cells. Nothing more, really.

02-26-2006, 02:38 AM	#17
o_broodingdude Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Hmm... Abortion is okay when: the baby is a product of rape, the baby is going to die anyway, the parent(s) are unfit, the child won't have much of a chance at any kind of life from the parent's negligence. It offends me to no end that people are trying to force women to bear the product of a rape. I think nurses (and doctors) will start smuggling 'morning after' pills regardless of the law. And if that's what it takes, I'll personally see to it that every hospital has a secret supply. Fuck those 'pro life' bitches.

02-26-2006, 02:58 AM	#18
o_legacy Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Newcastle, UK Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Many of a babies features develop withing weeks, not months as many people seem to think. Its very hard to quantify when a baby becomes alive, and then when does it become concious. I guess it all depends on how we determine what is life, but thats a whole other story. Fetal development here! Im far from being against abortions but theres a fine line to tread over who should be allowed them and when. Far too many stupid whores out there getting themselves pregnant, and then being able to get away with having it sucked out every time. I actually know a girl who's had 3 and you would have thought after the first she would have stopped being so moronic. I'm going to stop now or im going to argue myself to death. Lets just castrate people with an IQ lower than 80. That should reduce the number of abortions by half, slow population growth and improve the general level of intelligence all around. [edit: link inserted]

02-26-2006, 04:03 AM	#20
o_puppychow Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Washington DC Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	think of situations where responsible, mature people have sex, use a condom, are on birth control etc.....sometimes even with all that the female can still get pregnant..its not about 25 year old irrisponsible crack whores shagging the city block to get money for drugs. i have been in situations where the condomn broke. next day she would get the morning after pill (thank god for that)...now, what if condom didnt break, all seemed fine, yet three weeks later she says she is pregnant? No way am i havin that kid. not at this stage in my life.

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