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Re: Implement Changes...(Grenades/Spam) Issue Tools
issueid=253 01-07-2010 04:16 PM
Re: Implement Changes...(Grenades/Spam)

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/p...hp?issueid=252

man, I had a huge post written, but lost it. Whatever.

Grenades are already a ton weaker in FF than in TFC. The reason why they're still a crutch is because everything else does less damage, too - the sshotty sucks, the AC is pitiful, rockets have almost no push power, so can't be used to combo like in TFC, etcetc. Thus, players want more nades, mapmakers implement more nade bags, bad cycle.
Issue Details
Issue Type Feature
Project Fortress Forever
Category General Game
Status Rejected
Priority 1 - Highest
Suggested Version 2.4
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 1
Votes against this feature 5
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

01-07-2010 04:42 PM
Banned
 
We shouldn't be holding FF up to the standards of TFC. We shouldn't be buffing up weapons to make grenades weaker, we should just be making grenades weaker or revamping them to be less spammy/combat oriented when players already have an entire arsenal of weapons that do sufficient damage.
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01-07-2010 08:14 PM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
My only complaint about damage/weapons is that Nails from the Medic's SNG should do more damage to SG's.

However, I don't think nades are THAT much weaker in FF, however, the push you got off them in TFC was much more noticeable.
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01-08-2010 03:46 AM
 
Priming grenades in TFC was a lot of fun, but the problem is that the game essentially becomes a complete spam fest. Anyone who has played openfire_l knows this. Map strategies essentially become the process of finding which chokepoints to continually spam with grenades for 30 minutes. Most classes can carry up to 4 frag grenades each time they spawn, so you're gonna throw at least one grenade at every persons you face.

* Decrease amount of Grenades to 2. Give them a priming time of 5 seconds before exploding, longer you keep the button pressed the longer you hold the grenade before throwing it (perhaps allow demoman to have 4).
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01-08-2010 03:53 AM
 
Originally posted by BRIDGET

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnbeholden
Originally Posted by TheUnbeholden
Grenades are another issue. Priming grenades in TFC was a lot of fun, but the problem is that the game essentially becomes a complete spam fest. Anyone who has played openfire_l knows this. Map strategies essentially become the process of finding which chokepoints to continually spam with grenades for 30 minutes. Most classes can carry up to 4 frag grenades each time they spawn, so you're gonna throw at least one grenade at every persons you face.
This is true, and for the past week (I've been playing TFC because my video card is broken and can only handle Goldsrc games, lol) has irritated me so much. If you join a popular TFC server and pay attention to the upper right 'kill notifications' then it becomes overwhelmingly obvious that most of the kills are from two broken aspects of the game: Snipers and grenades. I am not going to argue against Snipers, no matter how much I think they don't deserve to be in a game where all the other classes have range restrictions. It's a topic for another time, but I do want to address grenades.

Grenades are too powerful, which is ironic, because I imagine their original purpose was to act as a support item, something to give you an edge in a fight or help you finish off an opponent. In reality, grenades are so powerful, that you can essentially use nothing but grenades to combat people in Team Fortress games. You can absolutely neglect using your class weapons, because a single fragmentation grenade is usually enough to take out anyone, as no one runs around all the time with perfect health; They're going to have some 'bumps and bruises'.

The fragmentation grenade is powerful enough to destroy a sentry gun assuming the sentry has a few slivers of health sliced off from its maximum health. Now, take a look at something like the Mirv. It deals an inital blast equal to a single fragmentation grenade, then drops four 'Mirvlets' which act as fragmentation grenades as well. You have five grenades in one with the Mirv. Overpowered much? This is a huge balance problem, but people tend to 'cling' to the Mirv, because it was in TFC and holds some 'memories' or 'nostalgia' with them.

Grenades need to be removed or reworked to act as non-combat tools. Let me just throw a random idea out. Made up on the spot! The Mirv, for example. What if it could be dropped (not tossed, negating any possible use as weapon) and then opened, depositing five yellow manually detonate-able pipes where it disassembled? These wouldn't explode or deal damage, unless the demoman used his alt-fire button. This acts as a 'tool' instead of a weapon. He can now quickly set up pipe traps and is free to deal combat damage with his real weapons, such as the blue pipes or his single shotgun. Get what I'm saying?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnbeholden
* Decrease amount of Grenades to 2. Give them a priming time of 5 seconds before exploding, longer you keep the button pressed the longer you hold the grenade before throwing it (perhaps allow demoman to have 4).
I am for decreasing grenades, I suggested that one should have two frag grenades maximum and one secondary 'unique grenade' maximum if they were not reworked. In addition, I would like to see a system that 'powers up the grenades', as I suggested a long time ago: The longer you keep a grenade primed, the more damage it deals (working from no damage to 100% damage as intended now). This punishes people who spam their grenades mindlessly without a prime and rewards those who are conservative and use them correctly.
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01-08-2010 04:10 AM
FF Loremaster
 
FYI: The removal of grenades is one of the key decisions Valve made to limiting spam. After the removal of grenades they went on to realize that classes that relied on the conc were rather redundant and then they went on to retool the role of those classes.

And that is TF2.
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01-08-2010 06:28 AM
 
God damn. I don't know why the fuck everyone believes nades are that bad. Their splash damage tampers out almost instantly. Even if one blows up on you, you're only taking, what, 130 damage or so? (less for handheld nades, for some reason). Rockets and pipes both do over 100 each for direct hits - rockets do 102, pipes do 108. Grenades aren't a key weapon. You're not going to be able to hold off an offense with just nades, except for EMPs (which are broken, they'll either do 15 damage or 150, or some ridiculous amount, even when the grenadee drops his bags). Point is - nades are supplements in FF. The reason you see so many nade kills is because they're so often the finishing blow. (rocket+rocket+shotty+nade)

Decreasing the amount of nades people can carry should be left to the mapmakers. Restricting them all the time would cripple rjump/conc maps.

That said, as for upping weapon damage a bit - it would make defense a bit easier in comp play. For pubs, midmap DM would be over sooner, so there's more time for each team to get to the other base before respawners get into the yard again. And it'd inadvertently nerf snipers, which is always a plus.
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01-08-2010 01:00 PM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
If you think FF grenades are ruining the game, or they should be 'nerfed' chances are, you only play pubs, or are not very skilled at the game. Nades are nearly perfect, they allow medics to kill soldiers at choke points, and they also allow soldiers some utility. However, my single complaint about nades is that they can sometimes one-shot a scout. Other than that, if you're complaining about nades because you just got out of a TALOS pub and everyone was spamming nades... well you probably shouldn't cry about the balance of the game, and should rather focus on how pubs are just inherently chaotic and there's absolutely zero organization. If you want 'balanced' pub play, go play TF2, don't worry, the random crits, the weapons you can only get from grinding, and the achievements (AKA casual's dream) will make it fun.
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01-08-2010 01:31 PM
Banned
 
I don't think grenades are bad or ruining Fortress Forever, I just think they deal too much damage and give players little incentive to learn how to play their class. As pointed out, the removal of grenades was a big deal with Team Fortress 2. It forced players to learn to use their class and its weapons, instead of relying on throwing some quick priming grenade with a blast radius huge enough that tossing it in someone's general direction is usually enough to drain their health.

I see it like this: Grenades should be 'support'. If players are 'as skilled' as they claim to be, then their normal weapondry should be sufficient enough to kill players, but from my past experience, most deaths occur from people tossing 'nades around like they're drugs at a rave. Grenades feel like FF's 'critical hit' to me. Multiple times, I have been close to finishing someone off, who has not hit me enough to be deemed a worthy opponent, yet he doesn't need to do any of that, because soon an EMP will arrive at my feet and kill me out of desperation.

I don't have that much of a problem with fragmentation grenades. Though, my annoyances with grenades goes further than player combat. Right now, sentry guns get destroyed by having people fling their grenades unprimed at the sentry's base. This equates to a 'poor man's mirv' if you will. No engy nor sentry could survive that. Then, there's just the mirv. I think they're just too easy to be abused like that. I can understand their legitimate use, and don't want to punish people who can use 'nades properly. It's just, I 'unno, they can be so easily gimmicky. Bad players should be punished. Good work should be mandatory and praised. I'm sure you'll agree with me there.

Yes, I am complaining because of how easily grenades are exploited. I shouldn't have to join some niche to be able to enjoy a good game of Fortress Forever, and the same 'Go back to TF2' argument is 1. getting really fucking old and 2. your inability to construct a real argument. This game is dying because the solution to every problem seems to be "That's problematic? Ha, only in pubs! Join a league, you scrub."

ARGUMENT IN A 'NUTSHELL':
  1. Grenades can easily be abused.
  2. Therefore, come to a solution that rewards good nade use (How competitive players play, prime and toss) and punish players who mindlessly spam. (no prime, ff-f-f-f-f-f-f-dfdf go go go nades go)

If someone empties his 'grenade belt' infront of my sentry gun, and I am absolutely ripped to shreds along with my sentry gun and dispenser, it's one thing to say "That guy sucked so bad he had to spam.", but you must realize that I SUFFER BECAUSE THE GAME ALLOWS THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOR. Then, you give me a really terrible workaround like "Join a league." No. Fix it.

As I said, let fragmentation grenades 'charge up' in damage with prime. Grenades should be at 100% damage at the third beep. Third beep to fourth beep is the throw window. If you prime and use 'nades correctly, as you comp players do already, then nothing really changes! You still can use 'nades effectively. However, for the abusive nub with his finger glued to his f key, throwing out three unprimed nades on my sentry gun should deal next to no damage. Keep the push for advanced movement, but tone the damage down on spammed nades. Of course, this is just a suggestion to give you an idea of how we could fix nades to punish bad players and reward good players. Force people to play better. EVERYONE WINS, EXCEPT NUBS.

(I know what you're going to say. But what if I want to toss a grenade some long distance, at like a corner in anticipation for an incoming enemy? Yeah, use a nail grenade. That's what they're for.)
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01-08-2010 02:49 PM
 
All the class grens can go cept the emp plz, ng really needs it bad, how bout they only work in base? That may help the offense ng problem?
I believe the emp was developed to stop heavy flow in base which it works well, and jesus tron how strong do u want the sng to be? its slices pretty good now
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01-08-2010 03:02 PM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
I don't think grenades are bad or ruining Fortress Forever, I just think they deal too much damage and give players little incentive to learn how to play their class. As pointed out, the removal of grenades was a big deal with Team Fortress 2. It forced players to learn to use their class and its weapons, instead of relying on throwing some quick priming grenade with a blast radius huge enough that tossing it in someone's general direction is usually enough to drain their health.
We both know this is non-sense. Removing grenades, concs, and all other abilities that required skill (the skill cap) are what made TF2. And that's bullshit that removing said things allowed people to focus on using their class. TF2 is just as much of a clusterfuck as any full FF pub.

I also disagree that nades remove the incentive to learn your class. It is exactly the opposite. Some of the best players in this game use nades to their fullest ability. Watch a medic like killu completely destroy a soldier without using all of his nades. One strategically placed nade can mean the difference between grabbing the enemies' flag and not. Just because some noob in a pub server spams their 'f' and 'g' keys doesn't mean nades are too powerful, rather, it means that noob isn't playing correctly. Nades are only a crutch for noobs, and they're only unbalanced in pubs. Notice the trend here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
I see it like this: Grenades should be 'support'. If players are 'as skilled' as they claim to be, then their normal weapondry should be sufficient enough to kill players, but from my past experience, most deaths occur from people tossing 'nades around like they're drugs at a rave. Grenades feel like FF's 'critical hit' to me. Multiple times, I have been close to finishing someone off, who has not hit me enough to be deemed a worthy opponent, yet he doesn't need to do any of that, because soon an EMP will arrive at my feet and kill me out of desperation.
That's a false dichotomy. You see, the entire problem here, is your point of view. Like you said yourself, 'in your experience', nades are tossed around like they're drugs at a rave. Problem found. Your experience consists of completely unorganized, chaotic gameplay. Don't you see? You're conflating the two schools of FF, and are instead saying a particular mechanic is broken, when your perception of the game is based on completely false/wrong platitudes. Like I said earlier, FF is like an intricate drawing, there's multiple factors that come together to create a balanced, semblanced game where skill and teamwork are the ultimate factors.

I don't have that much of a problem with fragmentation grenades. Though, my annoyances with grenades goes further than player combat. Right now, sentry guns get destroyed by having people fling their grenades unprimed at the sentry's base. This equates to a 'poor man's mirv' if you will. No engy nor sentry could survive that. Then, there's just the mirv. I think they're just too easy to be abused like that. I can understand their legitimate use, and don't want to punish people who can use 'nades properly. It's just, I 'unno, they can be so easily gimmicky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
EDIT: Yes, I am complaining because of how easily grenades are exploited. I shouldn't have to join some niche to be able to enjoy a good game of Fortress Forever, and the same 'Go back to TF2' argument is 1. getting really fucking old and 2. your inability to construct a real argument. This game is dying because the solution to every problem seems to be "That's problematic? Ha, only in pubs! Join a league, you scrub."
I've constructed a perfectly valid argument. The only reason why you can't see that is because of your own confirmation bias. Look, this game has a high skill cap. I hate to say it, but if you want to play a rousing game of Fortress Forever, a pub is not the place to do it. I get frustrated in pubs all the time, from good snipers like tk and blackout, and the nade spam. Guess what, I have the ability to differentiate what is proper use of the game and it's mechanics, and improper use. Pubs and pubbers improperly use game mechanics. They're like sketching, just something to do to waste time. FF is like an intricate drawing, there's tons of components that make it whole. Everything from bunnyhopping, trimping, conc jumping, etc., are all something that are almost completely ignored by pubbers, and are primarily used by people who DO play competitively.

Also, the reason this game is dying is much more dynamic than you make it out to be. Last time I checked, the pickup/league community is larger than the pub community.
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01-08-2010 04:17 PM
Banned
 
I'm suggesting forcing grenades to be made skillful by restricting them from being used in a cheap way. Grenades were mostly used as spam in TFC, so they were removed in TF2 to prevent the same. That doesn't mean they can't be, as I have pointed out, used in a legitimate way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron
Just because some noob in a pub server spams their 'f' and 'g' keys doesn't mean nades are too powerful, rather, it means that noob isn't playing correctly. Nades are only a crutch for noobs, and they're only unbalanced in pubs. Notice the trend here?
The Mirv deals 725 points of damage. The EMP has no cap on its damage capability. The fragmentation grenade deals 145 points of damage. That is enough to kill light armor classes (Scout, Sniper, Civilian) in one hit at point blank range. It was tested (Thanks/Спасибо to Immortal and Nickit), and a point blank frag nade leaves with Medic with around 25-35 health 10-20 armor. Who needs to kill their opponent with good aim and consistency when you can just throw a grenade in their general direction and walk away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron
. . .You see, the entire problem here, is your point of view. Like you said yourself, 'in your experience', nades are tossed around like they're drugs at a rave. Problem found. Your experience consists of completely unorganized, chaotic gameplay. Don't you see? . . .
You're absolutely correct. What I am saying is this: Prevent this 'pub' scenario from happening, so that the people who join don't get overwhelmed and leave. Implement measures that prevent this nub ass spam from taking place while praising proper skillful gameplay. This is a different point I am arguing from whether or not grenades are too powerful.

This 'ideology' should be used for every part of the game. Instead of making the game reward players who play it with some sincerity and skill and punishing the 'baddies', the solution has always been "Oh, let's ignore it. They're noobs. Join a league." but that only takes in account the bad actions of the spammer or abusive player and ignores the player who suffers because others can't play fair.

My points:
  1. Grenades are easily abused. This doesn't get rid of their legitimate use. There should be measures to avoid grenades being spammed without negating legitimate use.
  2. Though, their legitimate use makes no sense at times, the grenades are not 'supportive', they're perfectly capable of being used as entire weapons on their own. This is NOT how they should be.
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01-08-2010 04:39 PM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
I already stated my displeasure with nades one-shotting scouts from full to zero. That is my single complaint with nades.

If grenades are really that much of a problem, get with the server owners and get them to change the lua for maps. Reduce the amount that are given, the amount you spawn with, etc. If there was a magic bulllet approach to 'fixing' the abuse of nades, I'd be all for it, but the way I see it, that's impossible without screwing up rudimentary game mechanics.
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01-08-2010 04:42 PM
Banned
 
I see this as a (start to a) solution:
  • Native 2 fragmentation grenades maximum.
  • Native 1 secondary grenade maximum.
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01-08-2010 04:48 PM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
Limiting the amount of grenades won't do much. All you'll see is defenders going to resupply bags less, and intentionally dying so they can renew their grenade supply. In pubs, people don't live more than 30 seconds anyways, so they'll always have a fresh supply of grenades.
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01-08-2010 04:53 PM
Banned
 
That's why I see it as the start of a final solution (In before nazi jokes) on fixing grenade spam and forcing players to use their grenades wisely/praising players for using their grenades wisely.
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01-08-2010 05:00 PM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
I feel the solution is realizing the game is improperly played in pubs.

Also, there are ways to have organized play without getting into a niche. Find an enforced OvD server (Cake has a server, Ricey has a server, and there's a couple others out there that escape my memory). In TFC I ran an enforced OvD server that doubled as my clan server and it worked perfectly. I simply told people that these were the rules and if you don't want to follow them, there's plenty of other pubs they can play at. You don't have to be elite either, most of the people who joined my enforced OvD server were people who wanted to improve their skill, but didn't want to play in pickups/leagues/2v2's, they wanted just wanted quality pubbing. It works, try it sometime.
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01-08-2010 05:20 PM
Banned
 
Perhaps our standards are different, but I think that if the game can be played poorly in pubs, then that behavior is allowed by the game itself and should be fixed. Means should exist to force players to play properly, in my book. "niche" servers should not have to exist to combat failure. :o
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01-08-2010 08:48 PM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
I disagree--people are going to play how they want to play regardless of what the game makes them do. Sure, you can push people into doing certain things, but a CTF/TF game like FF is mostly static. Look at the history of TFC, people made Hookmod, NeoTF, ZombieMod for CS, etc. Look at a game like HL2:DM, people have completely re-coded the game and have turned it in an 'RP' game, where all they do is roleplay. Games don't define players (if the game is static), players define the games they play. Casual players (Pubbers) will always be pubbers--a very small population of pubbers will make the transition over to competitive play, but for the most part this remains a rock-solid truism.

I believe in the law of unintended consequences--if you force people to do something (by trying to solve a problem), it will just create more (another) problem(s).

You also have to realize that the grenade problem is partly due to map-makers not considering the effects of having +1 frag grenade per respawn per bag. Thanks to lua, a map maker can control so many aspects of their map, but the one thing they are powerless over (beyond limiting grenade spawns and the amount of grenades you spawn with) is the abuse of grenade and similar mechanics. Which gets to the crux of the pub vs. competitive debate. In most (not all) pub environments, the game is simply being misplayed. Period.
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01-18-2010 05:57 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
I see this as a (start to a) solution:
  • Native 2 fragmentation grenades maximum.
  • Native 1 secondary grenade maximum.

I'm all for keeping grenades (especially the unique grenade types)

Well lets just implement the changes and see. Speculation will only take us in circles. But I have to agree with Bridget. If we test it out and see how it goes... if it ends up improving the game in the way she has said (balancing it out and less easy to spam) then we'll see. Thats the great thing about modding, you can always make new additions, reiterations... testing it out before release will of course take place... if it works it works. Who's to say it won't improve the game?

Practice > Theory.
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01-30-2010 11:00 PM
Ambassador of Everything.
 
The grenades are valuable supplements to each class, shifting them to what I believe to be perfect balance.

The TFC grenades I guess can be considered a 'spamfest', but not FF. Any maps where grenades are rare I usually do that trick where I self-destruct with my last grenade. I'm weaker in general with any class because the grenades are rarer.
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