lowering the skybox is probably the best fix here if the above is an issue.

what other avenues are there? pipes are a pretty fundamental defense tool, so i dont think starving ammo is a good idea.

Put some type of chokepoint in front of the goal, instead of completely changing the gameplay. Instead of having a traditional 'goal', make it more like a room with an entrance.

Do what I say but don't do what I say.

Yeah it is pretty bad. I'm kind of against the skybox idea simply because rocketing WAY up in the air is so much fun. I think having either above-average fall damage (so pipe jumps will be lethal on impact) or making the goal a bit more of an obstacle is the best solution.

chilledsanity is right. Everytime I get launched that high in the air, I just laugh really hard. It's too fun!

I think lethal fall damage (moreso than normal FF) might be the best solution really for two reasons:

1. People can still pipe the ball over to the enemy goal, but they can't score this way. This makes it more of a team effort to cap using this method (a man already in place by the goal), plus it gives the defending team a chance to reclaim the ball.

2. It would be frigging hilarious to see it raining dead players more frequently.

As for the goal modification, maybe something that extends the roof of the goal a bit so you can't just sail in at an angle (unless it's near horizontal).

my opinion still stands at map augmentation. be it either from a low ceiling, or from making the goal more challenging from the air as you guys have suggested. changing fall damage between maps is a rather counterintuitive means of achieving balance, as it doesn't offer the player a consistent experience.

Multiply damage to airborne targets

I like it

As long as this doesn't effect civilians, I'm for it.

do you mean for all maps?

I was talking about waterpolo in particular.

I'd rather see a low ceiling fix instead of some janky damage modification

When you shoot someone in the air, they should stay in the air.

Anyway, in its current form, waterpolo is a good test of the anti-air abilities of the classes.

I don't think this is as big of an issue as zE says...if you have a decent civi who can goalie Or even just a demo playing goalie, you can easily stop any pipe jumper before they score, or at least I can. Especially on water-polo b/c you can see them coming for miles.

Lower ceiling wouldn't fix anything, neither would increased fall damage.

Lower ceiling wouldn't fix anything cause, well only noob demos and jumpers jump super high to score, the ones who ruin the game (ie: the really good ones), jump at an angle that doesn't take them very high up, and are more rifled into the goal at high speeds. You'd have to lower the ceiling soo much that it wouldn't be entertaining for anyone.

Increased fall damage doesn't help either cause again, a good jumper doesn't even thouch the ground before capping, he flies straight into the goal.

And yes this does ruin the game, it's got nothing to do with someone who's capable of defending the goal. There are tons of decent demomen out there good enough to stop incoming jumps, that's nothing special.

How this ruins the game is that it turns the whole game into a demo boost fest. The funnest games are the ones where each team pushes back and forth, the whole field is used, and nobody is left out.

There's been many games where this happens, we can go 5 minutes before scoring a cap. Then some jerk joins the server, goes demoman, and starts piping people, to prove what? That he can pipe a guy across the map and score repeatedly? boring. The only defense to that is get your own demoman piping on your side. Then the game just turns into a competition between the demomen boosting and defending the goal. The rest of the map is skipped over and anyone who's not a demoman or jumper is just running around killing people cause there's nothing important for them to do.

Making the goal more an obstacle to score is a minor fix, yes it gives a better chance to defend, but it doesn't stop the fundamental problem on how the demomen are ruining the game. And that is by skipping the whole map and turning the whole game into a demo pipe fest back and forth.

I suggested this a long time ago, and i'm going to bring it up again here. There should be a wall or divider hanging over the center of the map, that doesn't let people boost from their own goals.

Think about it, how many real sports do you have out there, that have strategies completely based on scoring a goal from your own net? Normally the idea is to gain ground into enemy territory and then make your move for the goal. This should be no different. Let people demo boost, let people fly into the net let them fly super high to score goals, but all this should be done after they've atleast made it to the enemy's side of the field.

I see no problem boosting someone into the goal once they get past half, cause it's far riskier and would make the move all the more sweeter

Hammock has pretty good points. By far the most fun games are the ones that involve a push towards the goal instead of the first person to run in and get the ball then bring it back to their goal.

Another minor point against the fall damage "solution": You don't take fall damage when you land in water. Hint: The map is called waterpolo.

You stole my reply you bastard! I don't think this really makes the map broken at all, since ukfootie was pretty much the same way with concing scouts/medics and people still loved it. The skybox solution could be viable if you lowered it without really lowering it. What I mean is lower the areas in front of the goals so theres a bit of a walking distance, this way people would strive harder to do the fast low pipe jump Banana described, essentially the skybox brush would like something like _/ \_ in front of the goals, easy fix and stops uber high pipe launching. Personally I think it's ok as is, if your demo is doing his job and keeping a few pipes out for jumping and defending the goal it's really not an issue.

What about making the ball heavier?