Fortress Forever

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squeek. 01-13-2010 12:26 AM


Originally Posted by Iggy (Post 462213)
I could be mistaken... but the last time I checked, bullets/rockets/nails/buckshot all travel the same distance as a sniper shot. Not as fast, but just as far.

So a sniper rifle that shoots a projectile that moves as fast as a rocket would be just as effective as the current sniper rifle?

Bridget 01-13-2010 01:49 AM

If my assumption is correct, no, I'm not going to try to hit a Sniper with my super shotgun from across the map only to have the rare 4 (rounded up) damage pellet hit him.

SSCUJO 01-13-2010 03:36 AM

its not about damaging the sniper, its about making him miss his shot, and if a 4 dmg pellet hits him, he most likely will, if the sniper is even around long enough to get hit, most snipers back away under pressure, it's basically essential for the sniper, most of the time the sniper has no choice but to back away, (solider firing rockets from battlements). you need only to close the gap, and then every other class dominates the sniper weapon wise, sure the sniper is the only one that can do easy dmg long range, but it is also the class that does the least dmg close range.

iggy's right, every weapon fires long range, don't stand around and wait to be hit. fight back, its not supposed to be an easy ride into the enemy base.

and squeek, for most of this thread the conversation has been that the sniper is the ONLY class with long range effectivness, iggy is simply saying that other classes have long range effectivness. the sniper may be the MOST effective long range weapon, but i would say the rocket launcher is the most effective short range weapon. all waepons fire long distances and can hit a sniper... the sniper rifle just hapeens to be the best at it.

Bridget 01-13-2010 03:52 AM

'All weapons can travel long distances' is what you're aiming for. However, not all weapons are effective at long distances. I could file my fucking taxes by the time a rocket makes its way to the enemy battlements. Those suggestions are in NO WAY effective means of fighting back. I should not have to waste my ammunition blindly spamming toward the Sniper's general direction nor deplete my entire pool of armor and some health points using some drastic means of movement to close the distance. I want to play Fortress Forever, not Frogger Forever.

SSCUJO 01-13-2010 04:15 AM

then your simply playing the wrong game. the game is not what you want it to be. it is what it is. you avoid that sniper by any means because you have no choice but to avoid that sniper, plain and simple... im sorry your instant path to the base is obstructed, its a shame, really it is, it must suck to actually have to put effort into the mid map travel.

and as long as it does damage its effective, just not very effective. and lets not forget the engy's railgun, which will all but kill a sniper at full charge and send him running.

Bridget 01-13-2010 04:24 AM

Quite the opposite, Snipers are in the wrong game.

SSCUJO 01-13-2010 04:36 AM

and i would say a class that flies is in the wrong game

scouts and medics should not have concs. sniper is the only class in pub play that can kill them midfeild, get rid of snipers get rid of concs.

squeek. 01-13-2010 05:11 AM

But is flying a problem?

I'll use a knife fight as an analogy:

There is a knife fight. I've got a gun. I kill everyone that showed up with a knife. Me having a gun is a problem.

There is a knife fight. I've got a knife, but I can fly. I don't really have much of an advantage, if any. I'm limited by my knife skills; everyone else also has a knife. (For the purposes of this analogy being accurate, while flying it either becomes impossible or very difficult to use my knife)

There is a knife fight. I've got a knife, I can fly, and another guy has a gun. Me and everyone else with a knife gets killed. That guy having a gun is a problem.

And here is a visual aid:
Which one is not like the others?

We can bring FF's use of movement into this discussion, but it will only complicate the issue. Movement is not similar at all to something like range of effectiveness.

SSCUJO 01-13-2010 05:59 AM

couple problems with the illustration. engy's railgun is only slightly less effective compared to the sniper rifle range wise and speed wise. and the diagram in no way shows the snipers complete lack of effectiveness in close range. also in what way does that diagram mean effectiveness? if it is speed then the shotguns are just as effective as the sniper rifle long range, if it means accuracy then the nailguns, rocketlaunchers, and railgun are as effective at long range, and if it means damage then the railgun and to some degrees the rocketlauncher are as effective at long range. the only advantage the sniper has is that it is good at all of those long range, but good at nothing close range.

in all honestly it comes down to if the game developers (squeek etc) want a stop check in the yard, a reason for someone to think before they move, if the the game is designed for speed and speed only and the fastest way to the base is the only way to the base mentality, then the sniper has no place and should nvr had been put in the game to begin with. honestly think back to the creation of this game? what was the point of the sniper? was it simply because other games did it before this one? or was there actually a reason for it?

it really comes down to what kind of game do the developers want.

squeek. 01-13-2010 06:05 AM

You're right about the railgun. It creates a similar problem because it can travel so far (and fairly quickly). Also, by effectiveness I did mean speed, damage, and accuracy together.

We'll see what happens, but it is clear that the snipers range of effectiveness creates a problem that needs to be solved in some way, is it not?

SSCUJO 01-13-2010 06:17 AM

if the range was taken away you would simply have a close to mid range insta kill weapon, if you took away its damage aswell you would have a class that would have no reason to be played.

i mean are we all forgeting how easy the sniper is to kill? the target almost never moves and he is very weak, his 2 advtanges are damage and range, any other class would have a list 5 times that size. any enemy simply needs to get close to kill him, should the sniper not have such a huge advantage at a distance since it has such a horrible weakness at close range.

squeek. 01-13-2010 06:47 AM

To be sure, I'd say the sniper currently is a "balanced" class, in a broad sense (the snipers' contributions to both the defense and offense of map objectives are not the greatest, so him having high killing power doesn't really make him unbalanced; the balance of the game is focused largely around the objectives). But, that doesn't exclude the class from having very large flaws that need to be fixed.

Bridget 01-13-2010 06:59 AM

The Sniper's weakness is no downside to his long range capabilities, because his long range capabilities directly protect him, making it more of a minor con if ever the tables are turned. He has no real hard downside. That's a major problem. Yes, the Sniper is very hard to kill, when you are able to kill him. Damage and range benefits are overpowered together. Have one or the other, or implement a huge con that affects him in general (not in certain situations like his weak health/armor), and it's getting there.

The Railgun is not comparable to the Sniper rifle. For one, the Railgun is a fast moving projectile. The Sniper Rifle is hit-scan. If you can consistently hit someone across the yard with the rail gun, then I compliment you. It's more difficult than, say, using a hit-scan weapon. Though I think all the classes should be at equal ranges to allow equal opportunity (in a general sense), I would be less likely to rage if Sniper used a fast moving projectile instead of hit-scan.

Yeah, I think the Sniper was added 'just because'. It was to appeal to people who, and I mean this with no offense, suck. This is 'Team Fortress Forever' at the core of it. The offense should be able to enter the enemy base and see how well they fare against its defense. Snipers shooting people down lead to Engineers and Demomen and Soldiers and Heavies and what have you sitting in the base killing the occasional attacker who gets through.

The O has no push because of fucking Snipers, so they give up and go D, and it turns into D v D because no one wants to go into the yard and get sniped by someone who is so crippled they can't play a real class like Soldier, for example. This game would be more exciting without Snipers ruining any 'momentum' that might build up.

SSCUJO 01-13-2010 07:07 AM

speaking for myself, i've played many games in many genres and the sniper has always been my true favorite, in this game the sniper has only 2 adjustable attributes distance and damage, both absolutely key to what a sniper is, if the future of this game tampers with that mix then i will not attempt to suggest an alternative to a class or a game i would no longer play. not to say the change by the devlopment team would not be respected by me, but i would simply no longer play, because what was once fun is no longer.

if the development team is dead set on changing the combination of damage and distance then i have to bow out of the discussion, because i am only here to argue that the sniper needs to stay the same.

that being said, if there is a change to the sniper that would make it more fair, yet still keep its potent mix of range and damage i am more then willing to bounce around ideas and suggestions. but if you take away what the sniper is.. well, its no longer a sniper.

PS is there a developer still around that can tell me the exact reason the team decided to add the sniper to this game?

Bridget 01-13-2010 07:16 AM

If you find Fortress Forever fun only because of Sniper, then I don't know what to suggest. I am 'all in' for making the game fun for everyone, not just the guy shooting people before they can fight back. Oh, the developers probably added the Sniper because they originally planned this game to be 'TFC on Source'

VentuSag3 01-13-2010 07:27 AM


Originally Posted by cjeshjoir™ (Post 462132)
  • cr_sniper = (1 or 0)
  • More AvD



One sniper is not a problem. Learn to bunnyhop...or better yet stop trying to play O with a slow class.

Snipers are only a problem when you have 2-3 of the best snipers in the game all on the same team. Limit snipers and suddenly it's not an issue.

And am I the only one who finds a person who mains solly to be complaining about other classes situational overpowered status very ironic? Soldier has just as much a massive advantage in closed hallways as Sniper has at long range open spaces.

Bridget 01-13-2010 07:33 AM


Originally Posted by VentuSag3 (Post 462267)
And am I the only one who finds a person who mains solly to be complaining about other classes situational overpowered status very ironic?


VentuSag3 01-13-2010 07:35 AM


Originally Posted by Bridget (Post 462268)

So much for your intellectual honesty.

Bridget 01-13-2010 07:45 AM


Originally Posted by VentuSag3 (Post 462269)
So much for your intellectual honesty.

Being intellectually honest doesn't mean being contradictory. If Soldier were a problem, I'd bitch, but he's arguably the most balanced class in the game. :3

VentuSag3 01-13-2010 08:15 AM

Solly is not the most balanced class, he is the best overall DM'er and best at close range.

Most balanced class award IMO goes to Medic.

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