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-   -   Snipers! They don't belong. (https://forums.fortress-forever.com/showthread.php?t=21345)

Credge 01-21-2010 02:20 PM

Remove sniper from core gameplay, keep him for maps like hunted and fun game types.

Add in a new class that functions like a medium range sniper but with secondary grenades.

Problems solved.

Bridget 01-21-2010 02:24 PM

It's very situational, now that I think about it. I keep using aardvark as the reference point in my mind. Anticitizen is a good example of what I am trying to get at. On the first and third capture points, the Sniper shines because he has total control over those areas given their openness. He is at a situational advantage. The second capture point is a different story, however, because it is cramped and closed in, meaning people can easily pin a Sniper and take him out (with the occasional exception in the small court with the pillars near the teleporter), so they have the situational advantage there.

Now, because there is an obvious pattern going on with the classes where each of them shines at close range or medium range, it makes more sense to make the Sniper a medium range class to keep everything organized. Why work on every other class and bring them up to the Sniper's level when you can just knock Sniper down to everyone else's level? At this range, the Sniper is able to fight back effectively as well as his victims. You can have fun figuring out how to keep him a 'Sniper' in the informal sense of the word. Abolish situational advantages, then. Give everyone an equal playing field, at-least in opportunity to engage the enemy. It needs to work that no matter what map you are on, whether the huge yard on aardvark or the cramped enclosure of 2fort, that each class has the same core opportunity to fight another.

Green Mushy 01-21-2010 02:52 PM

I dont see why people dont understand that this is not an issue of Sniper being overpowered or not. Its not a matter of him being effective and used in "league" play. It is a matter of the core mechanics of how the class functions that are coming into question. Many responses are similar to something like, "just make it a projectile", "sniper is not OP". Those responses arise when there is a misunderstanding in the actual problem. Just refer to anything squeek has posted in the thread for a better understanding.

In FF, we have established that all classes have to extend themselves, and put themselves at risk to get a kill. Everybody has to put themselves in some sort of danger to impact the other team. While this risk is being taken, all classes have the ability to damage one another, and meaningfully INTERACT with the other person. My decisions effect their decisions and it goes back and forth. During this interaction, there are a series of defenses, or 'counters' to what the other player is doing. The problem that stands out with sniper, is that the counter to what the sniper is doing, is just "hide from the sniper". That is not at all what an interaction between two players should be. It is stating, "to interact with a sniper, you should hide from sniper." So it becomes, that the only way to meaningfully interact with a sniper becomes to not play with him. Meanwhile there is no way to effect the sniper, and he can sit in safety and with the ability to kill you. Its not even a matter of 1 shotting, its not a matter of the class being strong or not, or used in "league" play or not. Its that the genuine interaction between a sniper and a player forces actions that are not fun or desirable. The response to a sniper in a yard elicit a response by a player that is not justified, such as sneaking via cloak across a yard, or taking the back route, or piping yourself for half ur health, or going sniper yourself. These "strategies" or "tactics" are unjustified and unfair, and not desirable to really exemplify what is good about FF. The very core FF gameplay of extending yourself, using ur movements, your predictions, your aim, and interacting with another player do not apply, and that is why i believe the current incarnation of sniper doesnt fit. I also feel that, as bridget posted, and has been correct about nearly everything so far, that if u want to play sniper, there are millions of games that allow you to do that. It it questionable whether the current sniper does a better job at masking the underlying gameplay of FF that the Dev team desperately wants people to have access to. It is possible that FF has been retaining something that can easily be found elsewhere in the world, that is currently doing harm to the game we are trying to make easier to see.

Sidd 01-21-2010 03:06 PM

You emphasise interaction, but don't seem to realise that that's what "just make it a projectile" is all about.

If it's a projectile then at long range you can use proactive and reactive movement to dodge. That's interaction which the hitscan rifle doesn't have. If you want to counterattack the sniper then you do so knowing that there's a middle range where you won't be able to dodge and he will have the advantage, so you try to cross this vulnerable range as quickly as possible. That's interaction. Just making it a projectile means you have interactive options for avoiding or attacking the sniper.

Green Mushy 01-21-2010 03:08 PM

It should also be noted that when players interact in other areas of FF, the situation is defined by the skill of the players. When a medic and soldier fight, their fight, no matter how good one or the other is, is always a struggle. Their "dance" of shooting and avoiding rockets is determined by both the players. In the interaction between a sniper and a player, the skill is entirely in the hands of the sniper. The player throws some juke moves, but ultimately, the player is just HOPING that he doesnt get shot. It doesnt matter how good somebody is. If u dodge rockets, you see them coming, you have a chance to dodge them, and you have feedback as to where u went wrong, which one hit you. In a sniper/player interaction, there is no feedback as to what u did right or wrong, what to do better next time, if you even effected him at all, and if your moves even changed the outcome of you being hit.

Projectiles only fix part of the problem. Players can dodge them, but the projectiles will come indefinitely. There is no way to stop the sniper, and the sniper always has the ability to keep shooting you without dying or risking anything at all.

Sidd 01-21-2010 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Mushy (Post 463159)
Projectiles only fix part of the problem.

That's exactly right. A projectile sniper rifle is a compromise between the current situation and losing long range combat altogether. That's why it has been suggested.
Edit: It needn't be true that the sniper doesn't risk anything by shooting long range. If you use circ's suggestion of only charging shots while zoomed, then all the time you spend sniping at someone the other side of the map carries the risk that his mate is heading straight for you and you can't even see him.

Bridget 01-21-2010 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidd (Post 463160)
Edit: It needn't be true that the sniper doesn't risk anything by shooting long range. If you use circ's suggestion of only charging shots while zoomed, then all the time you spend sniping at someone the other side of the map carries the risk that his mate is heading straight for you and you can't even see him.

I imagine cat and mouse is not a desirable tactic to counter Snipers. The person who is getting aimed at should be able to defend himself as an individual. Team efforts should be focused on general map objectives instead of camping some Sniper so the rest can make it across the map. One class should not need such attention.

SSCUJO 01-21-2010 07:01 PM

doesn't every class have a hitscan shotgun? now using an extreme map like arddvark you may only get a couple pellet hits a shot, but when looking at a map like 2fort, you can seriously throw off a sniper. now this isn't talking about damage, this is talking about how everyone is saying that there is absolutely zero counter to a sniper at long range. everyone has a hit scan weapon which means everyone can fire long range the sniper just so happens to be better at it, same as heavy is better at close range.

you can fight back, it only takes a few rounds from you shotty to send a sniper running, and don't worry about wasting your ammo, you'll find plenty of bags along the way to the base.

Bridget 01-21-2010 07:40 PM

That's very ineffective. Taking armor in account and the fact that the spread for shotguns (-single) past close range suffers greatly, you are going to be dealing next to nothing. While, on the other hand, they can deal a ton of damage to you without a problem.

The Heavy dominates close range, of course, but because everyone other class' range of effectiveness is medium or close range as well, they can put up a decent fight and utilize strategy to take the heavy down. At long range, the range of effectiveness of 9/10 classes is useless and there is no legitimate, intuitive, and entertaining (Yeah, video games are supposed to be a source of entertainment, who knew?) strategy involved closing the distance to get to the Sniper.

It's up to luck when you're closing the distance with Sniper. You'd best hope he misses, because other than that, what else can you do that effectively has you interacting with the Sniper and causing him to miss his shot? Nothing. Cloaking across the yard, pipe jumping, grenade jumping, rocket jumping, all of those are counter intuitive suggestions and in no way negate the Sniper's power directly.

SSCUJO 01-21-2010 08:11 PM

i would say the scout is ineffective against a heavy at close range, does that mean we need to change the scout?

once again its not about the damage delt its about throwing the snipers aim.

GenghisTron 01-21-2010 08:14 PM

Man, how many times does the SAME argument have to be brought up in a single thread. Fuck.

Firefox11 01-21-2010 08:14 PM

Been a while since I played, but I do remember that getting hit by whichever means made the aim jump for a second. I missed many shots due to the 'hit aim jump', and so will snipers that try to aim for the head (99% of them).

I mean, on 'normal' sized maps like 2fort, I could get across as Pyro by shoting an IC then spamming the single shotgun against the snipers...

Bridget 01-21-2010 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSCUJO (Post 463183)
i would say the scout is ineffective against a heavy at close range, does that mean we need to change the scout?

I don't even know what to say to that. Are you fucking serious?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenghisTron (Post 463186)
Man, how many times does the SAME argument have to be brought up in a single thread. Fuck.

If I repeat it long enough, maybe they'll get a clue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefox11
I missed many shots due to the 'hit aim jump', and so will snipers that try to aim for the head (99% of them).

Who wastes opportunity aiming for the head? Where did you get 99%, too?

TheKing 01-21-2010 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FEDOR (Post 463145)
And just lol at King saying Aardvark is not a good example sniper map, yet that is the one he always votes for. Sometimes he even rage quits should a map he will most likely die consistently on be picked. Fucking hypocrites.

I'm really trying hard not to post here again because I've heard all of these arguments and just generally try to stay out of this kind of stuff... but did you read my post? I actually said that Aardvark is the ideal example of a sniper map. How did you get that mixed up? Gonna have to work on that there literacy buddy :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKing (Post 463049)
Second, all classes have particular maps that are ideal for their particular skill set. If aardvark is your only major example for the sniper then I think I can live with that.

And yes, when the server goes to a map I don't enjoy I generally leave.. I don't personally like 'fun' maps or trimp maps.

CRAP now that I'm already writing you've gotten me to throw in one more post :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget (Post 463055)
Some players refuse to play Sniper, because they see it as a loser's class.

Who's fault is that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget (Post 463055)
The difference is that when a Soldier gibs you with a rocket or a Pyro converts you into a pile of ash, it is as the result of effort and skill. Minimal effort (shoot someone once uncharged) is required for the huge benefits of radio-tag and legshot. You don't earn those. They punish people for bypassing the Sniper.

You absolutely earn those. Bypassing even a good sniper is a relatively easy task for a good scout or medic. You are punished for getting shot; there's no punishment for getting past unharmed.

Sniping a scout out of the air absolutely takes skill and IMHO the sniper requires the most aim and reaction of any class. Try to reduce it to 'just point and click', but in the end it's a computer game and any class can be reduced to those sort of terms. As a final point on this topic, consider the huge skill differential between the few very best snipers and the ton of mediocre snipers (it's gigantic).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget (Post 463055)
There is an obvious and expectant pattern amongst the classes. Every class except the Sniper is really limited to close or medium range. He's out of place here. Those 'examples' you mention all take place within close range, where the classes are expected to have a fair opportunity.

There is an obvious and expectant pattern among all of the classes and each class breaks it in some way (that's why there are unique classes.. you just happen to pick range as your factor here).

Every class except the spy is unable to cloak and effectively hide - there isn't a good defense for running past a cloaked spy and getting stabbed in the back. In the same way that you have to get close to a sniper to kill them (which isn't necessarily true) you have to be able to notice a spy to counter them (IMO it's harder sometimes to find a good spy than it is to get close to a good sniper).

Every class except the engineer can't utilize buildables (and EMPs!). Every class except the scout and medic are relatively slow. Every class except the pryo is unable to deal multiple damage to you. Every class except the medic is unable to deal continued damage to you until you die. The demo has a ridiculously powerful timed detpack. All of the classes break the pattern in some way - for a sniper, it's range.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget (Post 463055)
I don't get enraged when I land on a Demoman's pipes and get blown to bits, because I could have avoided that.

I hadn't thought of it myself, but this is an excellent example. There is absolutely no difference between trying to avoid a sniper and trying to juke a demoman. You have no real control over their timing, you can only hope to throw them off. So if you're not enraged by the demoman but are angry when you get sniped.. there seems to be something off there.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidd (Post 463160)
If you use circ's suggestion of only charging shots while zoomed

That's why I don't play TF2.. that shit is lame. I would also be really disappointed with the glorified railgun that some of the people have brought up in these forums...

Anyways I'm gonna try really hard to stay out of this for the duration...

Green Mushy 01-21-2010 09:00 PM

Scout is not supposed to combat anything, let alone an HW. I think an HW is a special case because he loses his mobility when he shoots, along with the fact that he has to hold his cross-hair on people to kill them, which can take a long time. During that time, players are free to do damage to the HW, in heavy amounts if the HW doesnt move, complete objectives, or completely ignore the HW. Its also important to note that even the HW's AC loses effectiveness over range.

VentuSag3 01-21-2010 09:07 PM

Quote:

Your posts always say the same damn thing and you do not make any new arguments, which have constantly been refuted time and time again.
Nobody has even come close to refuting my core argument, which is that if Snipers were broken they would be breaking the competitive game.

Brdiget has completely ignored this argument and continues to write long winded QQ posts where he outlines all the Snipers plusses, blows them out of proportion via opinions while trying to pass it off as fact, and then completely ignores their weaknesses. His posts are all jokes.

If you think squeek was disagreeing with me, you need to up your English comprehension skills and re-read his post. He was adding to my post by saying that other classes have situations where they are at an advantage, and that this does not make for overall imbalance... not refuting it. Hell, as far as I am concerned this thread ended with his post and beyond that we've just been trolling each other for lulz

And eomoyaff's post was based on a highly opinionated premise. Multiplayer skill games should always be balanced based on high level play, otherwise it is not a skill game. If you want FF to be just like TF2 then fine, but personally I don't.

Green Mushy 01-21-2010 09:22 PM

Its not an issue of the class being used or not used in league play, nor is it about the class being overpowered. Both squeek and i have tried to explain this in previous posts. Ill try to use an analogy. If there is a class that can use his mind to kill any player he can see instantly, but it takes 30 seconds to charge up, that class would not be used in league play. This class is still broken. We would still be having the same exact argument, and still be making the same points. The issues would remain the same. Its about the mechanic of a long range weapon.

Green Mushy 01-21-2010 09:29 PM

Its also an important for people to be looking at sniper with the same scope. If we view sniper's use over a 15 minute ctf match, you would certainly conclude that the sniper is indeed not overpowered. But thats not the debate at all. The scope needs to be minimized to looking at the interaction between 1 player and 1 sniper over the course of 1 death. When a sniper has a charged shot ready, and sees somebody across a map, that is the situation that we are looking at, and examining if it is a problem. Not a 15-30 minute competitive ctf match.

Bridget 01-21-2010 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKing (Post 463190)
You absolutely earn those. Bypassing even a good sniper is a relatively easy task for a good scout or medic. You are punished for getting shot; there's no punishment for getting past unharmed.

Getting shot is punishment enough. I don't know if you realize this because you camp on the battlements for the entire match, but getting past the Snipers in the yard is supposed to be a minuscule task, because once you get inside the base, you have to deal with the entire team's defense. However, that's not how the game plays. Snipers just bottleneck all momentum. If someone can get past the Snipers, they should not be broadcast via a wallhack to the defense. What's the POINT of getting across the yard, then? Why put all that effort into getting across the yard to get emp'd around a corner?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKing (Post 463190)
Sniping a scout out of the air absolutely takes skill and IMHO the sniper requires the most aim and reaction of any class. Try to reduce it to 'just point and click', but in the end it's a computer game and any class can be reduced to those sort of terms. As a final point on this topic, consider the huge skill differential between the few very best snipers and the ton of mediocre snipers (it's gigantic).

Alright, the argument has never really been on skill. I do think it takes less skill sniping with a hitscan weapon from the safety of your spawn then confronting enemies at close range with a weapon that only deals effective damage if you can predict enemy movement such as with the Soldier. That's irrelevant, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKing (Post 463190)
...

Those skills don't break the game for everyone else, though. There is usually a huge downside attached to these benefits. The Scout is extremely agile because he sacrifices any means of effective combat usage. The Heavy is pretty powerful, but he is such an easy target, therefore easy to hit. The downsides are huge, usually. Their weaknesses are always there to be exploited. The Sniper's weakness is not always there to be exploited. You have to bypass his strength first. That seems backwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKing (Post 463190)
I hadn't thought of it myself, but this is an excellent example. There is absolutely no difference between trying to avoid a sniper and trying to juke a demoman. You have no real control over their timing, you can only hope to throw them off. So if you're not enraged by the demoman but are angry when you get sniped.. there seems to be something off there.

The demoman works well at close combat, where the other classes work just as well with the exception of the Sniper and non-combat offensive classes. The difference is that, in close quarters combat, you can do more than juke and pray for a miracle. You can actually determine the outcome of the fight by being a part in it. You can use your weaponry or fragmentation grenades to fight back. You interact. You determine your survival. When you're running across the yard toward the Sniper, what determines your survival? Your effort? Your actions? No, it's mostly luck. The Sniper controls the fight.

GenghisTron 01-21-2010 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget
Power and usefulness are two different things.

If you have a hard time understanding Bridget's argument, I recommend you write the above quote on the nearest possible chalkboard 1,000 times. My goodness, how can this thread get so big, with so few people understanding this basic concept. Yet more people on the FF forums that lack basic reading comprehension...


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