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Bridget 02-09-2010 06:06 AM

Community 'Poll' About Sniper
There was a request on the main Sniper thread for letting the community sort out the Sniper situation, even though it was pretty much concluded by some of the development team members to be somewhat of a problem. This thread isn't for discussion, just drop your opinions into the poll and move along. Others and I would like to see what the community thinks.

State in text whether you think it should be tweaked or revamped, removed or restricted. Spare the discussion. Take that to the other Sniper thread.

chilledsanity 02-09-2010 08:20 AM

You may not want a discussion, but when you only have the options overpowered and underpowered and both apply and you don't want a contradiction, it makes it kind of meaningless.

Bridget 02-09-2010 08:31 AM

Care to explain? I am talking about his potential damage. Do you think it is overpowered, underpowered, or balanced ("I believe that the Sniper is balanced in terms of power.") that he has the potential to insta-gib heavier armored classes? That's the question I am asking there.

chilledsanity 02-09-2010 08:42 AM

Even ignoring range, I think it's a mixed bag. A GOOD sniper will plaster your ass to the wall constantly. If you can't even get out of the fucking spawn without some elaborate scheme, that's overpowered. In big games, the sniper's usually just a nuisance, because there are too many targets to be hit all the time. In league games he doesn't do enough to affect the course of the game. In those situations he's underpowered.

I realize you're looking at the instagib capability, but it takes him time to charge it up, he has to stand relatively still, and he can't go after more than one target. This allows the power to swing both ways, hard. I don't see it as simple as over/underpowered.


You can't look JUST at raw damage. If you do, the demoman with his detpack is the most overpowered class/weapon in the game.

Bridget 02-09-2010 08:50 AM


Originally Posted by chilledsanity (Post 464743)
You can't look JUST at raw damage. If you do, the demoman with his detpack is the most overpowered class/weapon in the game.

That's a good point, and I never really thought about it. Yeah, people would say the detpack's raw damage makes him the most overpowered class in the game by that standard, but generally the demoman is regarded as somewhat balanced. Should I have written "I believe that the Sniper is generally overpowered, underpowered, balanced." instead of focusing on one aspect?

chilledsanity 02-09-2010 08:56 AM

Honestly I'd leave both and just allow people to be contradictory on that. In dropdown and aardvark I think the sniper is just a pain in the ass. In dustbowl I think he can be very functional. In avanti I don't think he does much.

VentuSag3 02-09-2010 09:15 AM


I believe that the Sniper is overpowered in terms of power.
I believe that the Sniper is underpowered in terms of power.
Bad poll bad word choices.

Overpowered/Underpowered has Always meant an overall assessment of how useful something is in all aspects, not just attack strength. I can't think of one major company in the gaming industry that has ever worded things like that. By including these meaningless choices but not including choices as to an overall assesment, you have created a meaningless poll.

Bridget 02-09-2010 09:19 AM

Yeah, thanks, we already mentioned that. The poll doesn't become meaningless, though.

squeek. 02-10-2010 07:41 AM

I removed "in terms of power" from the "is balanced/overpowered/underpowered" options (mostly so I could vote accurately).

immortal 02-10-2010 05:12 PM

tweaked/revamped = make it worse?

if so put one more vote to "I believe that the Sniper should be tweaked /or/ possibly revamped. "

i totally misunderstood that option at first.

add one to this option in my name or null all my voting and i'll remake it

squeek. 02-10-2010 07:06 PM

Tweaked/revamped means either changing it up a little bit (something like a projectile-based sniper rifle or something) or completely changing it into something different entirely.

immortal 02-10-2010 08:49 PM


Originally Posted by squeek. (Post 464931)
Tweaked/revamped means either changing it up a little bit (something like a projectile-based sniper rifle or something) or completely changing it into something different entirely.

Thank you, squeek!
yeah, i'd vote for that. i think sniper class need some changes

Credge 02-11-2010 12:35 AM

I voted that he should only be used for fun maps because I believe that is how it should be. I also believe a 10th class should be added which functions similarly to how the sniper does but in a way that is congruent with defense or offense in both CTF and AVD.

Mikael_hs 02-11-2010 01:07 AM

how bout fixing this one before adding another? :P

Rutabeggar 02-11-2010 01:59 AM

Conventionally when I think of a sniper, I think of a Marine Recon Sniper, or a Navy S.E.A.L. An individual unit capable of inflicting select casualties/damage deep behind enemy lines using his surrounding environment to hide his presence.

That sounds like the Spy...right? Perhaps if you remove the sniper, you could give the Spy something like a sniper rifle instead of his nail gun, with a limit of only say 3 rounds. Of course, this may piss off the people who play spy, but maybe help make up for taking away gas nades.

s0undch4s3r 02-11-2010 07:09 AM

This is a good thread and poll. The results are interesting.

A poll like this should help developers tweak the game.

People here are speaking out and perhaps something may be done.

I believe the sniper is just fine imo. The sniper class has always
been apart of my TF experience even though I hardly
play the class. It would seem strange to not have the sniper class
in all maps.

Agent Buckshot Moose 02-11-2010 01:15 PM

Didn't vote on a balance option. The Sniper is mostly balanced, and I'm still convinced that most people who are hating on the Sniper just suck at dodging or still have that "lol no snipers" mentality from TFC stuck in their heads, especially since the only hard data (server stats) that I actually saw posted in that thread did not unveil any kind of imbalance numbers-wise. Nevertheless, the thread did show that there are some problems with the Sniper. So I guess I probably should've voted for "The sniper is balanced." But meh.

The main problem with the Sniper is his binary nature, as well as his dependence on long range. At long, long range against slow classes, they have almost no chance of getting across a large map. Against fast classes, the Sniper only has a few chances to hit them. It's either shoot an enemy once (or twice), or be completely useless. At close range, he's as good as dead.

He's almost overpowered in a public play environment because people run around like chickens with their heads cut off, but completely useless in league play because everyone comes out of the base so fast and ignores the Sniper, and can actually press the strafe keys to dodge. The hitboxes are also a huge problem with the hitscan weapon.

I voted that the Sniper needs to be tweaked to be useful in all "levels" of play, as well as made a bit more "fair" for some people. I think the first step would be a projectile-based sniper rifle. Perhaps it could have gravity effects. Charge and move slowly only while in scoped mode. in unscoped mode it should be accurate at close range, but not at medium or long range.

With this projectile-based sniper rifle should come a fix of the hitboxes issue (turn it into a fast moving invisible rocket projectile if you have to). At super long range, the projectile and gravity effect make it harder for the sniper to hit people. At closer range, the sniper still has a fighting chance.

It may be that getting rid of charging and switching to a more "traditional" sniper rifle would work as well. I'm mostly imagining the Halo sniper rifle, but with some tweaks. Keep radio tagging, leg shots, and locational damage, but no charging. Just quick firing instead. Radio tags should stack, so each hit gives a few extra seconds. Leg shots likely the same deal. The movement speed should also come back quickly over time, and not last that long. Leg shots should only be usable by the sniper to temporarily slow down an advancing offense for a short period of time so he can line up a better shot.

Those are my thoughts on it anyway.

immortal 02-11-2010 04:56 PM

the main reason why snipers should be taken off this game is because at a certain point the offense starts no longer playing together against the enemy team, but it start playing against the sniper so they can reach the enemy base.

this should be a TEAMwork game, and snipers, with the power of killing an enemy miles away, kills this teamwork and bring up the idea of individual play.

Moreover, the snipers usually (99,99% of the cases) get their kills in mid map.
this slows down the game for both offense and defense.
for the offense because they are getting shoot before getting to enemy base, if they can reach it.
and for defense because they wait much more time for the enemy offense to come.

Again on the mid map issue:
How many server allow mid mapping?
Which TF tournament(no matter if it is QTF, TFC, or FF) allow mid map defense?

Im my point of view if you are gonna allow sniper to mid map, let's just put a heavy guy at every base entrance, and a SG near the mid map bunker. And ofc some Pyros on the enemy base entrance setting every enemy offense on fire.

now put it all together and answer:
How cool is that?
not cool, that's why mid mapping is not allowed/not supported in most of the servers. and completely forbidden on tournaments unless the flag is outside of the base.

so ok, let's not take it off completely, let's allow snipers on AvD and fun maps only.

Green Mushy 02-11-2010 08:27 PM

Are people voting for the "I enjoy playing against the Sniper in Fortress Forever" assuming they are also a sniper? If ur also a sniper, i can see voting for that. Otherwise u have just bought ur way onto my shitlist!

R00Kie 02-11-2010 09:25 PM


Originally Posted by Green Mushy (Post 465071)
Are people voting for the "I enjoy playing against the Sniper in Fortress Forever" assuming they are also a sniper? If ur also a sniper, i can see voting for that. Otherwise u have just bought ur way onto my shitlist!

oops, sorry Mushy

playing sniper vs sniper is not my thing. I like playing as a sniper but not shooting other snipers, i like trying to shoot people in mid air while they are concing or something, i think that's fun.

But playing against a sniper, i think it's fun to RJ to them dodging their shots and knowing they are completely helpless once i get there. That or i just get shot in the foot on the way out the door, Might as well just kill myself at that point. But also being a spy stabbing a sniper, you can be standing right next to them even uncloaked and they are zoomed in on the enemy base and have no clue.

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