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-   -   Snipers! They don't belong. (https://forums.fortress-forever.com/showthread.php?t=21345)

Bridget 01-11-2010 04:07 AM

This argument is about core balance, not whether or not it takes skill, whether or not Snipers are 'helpful' or 'useful', and whether they dominate easily. If someone dominated the game with Soldier, it wouldn't be a problem, because it's a FAIR class. It has no direct advantages over any other class, so it's usually pure skill as opposed to some skill and a huge inherent benefit (long range, legshot, native wallhack, best weapon in game)

Credge 01-11-2010 05:45 AM

You could argue that if the sniper is able to dominate then it is fair because the sniper either makes a kill or does not.

(Hint: A better argument would be that this doesn't fit in to the game.)

SSCUJO 01-11-2010 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget (Post 462013)
inherent benefit (long range, legshot, native wallhack, best weapon in game)

of course your list of problems with the sniper did seem abit short...
-only class that can't fire and jump
-slow'd while aiming
-less sight while aiming
-low armour and hp (already mention'd)
-poor hit detection
-short legshot time
-short 'native wallhack' time
-no special grenade
-1 shot-recharge
-only useful long distances

and theres more... i think the benefits do this class justice.

as for if it belongs in the game, that is up to the developers and the direction they want to take the game.

Raynian 01-11-2010 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSCUJO (Post 462025)
of course your list of problems with the sniper did seem abit short...
-only class that can't fire and jump

Okay? This is hardly a problem. Especially since you rarely get popped up off your feet by a rocket or nade in FF.

Quote:

-slow'd while aiming
Doesn't matter when the sniper just sits on his battlements deck 90% of the time. If someone's near him, he can just pop them in the leg and run circles around them, don't need to charge for that.

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-less sight while aiming
That's bullshit. Any sniper worth his salt will only zoom in when he sees his target and is about to fire.

Quote:

-low armour and hp (already mention'd)
And yet it doesn't seem that low when you're juking one. They can still soak up three or four point blank sshotties before dying, or a nade and some other stuff...and they move really fast, so they can dodge a lot of incoming attacks.

Quote:

-poor hit detection
There are plenty of snipers who can hit targets almost all the time. Just need to be more accurate.

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-short legshot time
5 seconds isn't enough time? You could shoot off almost ten more rounds in that time. If you don't kill him, someone on your team will finish the job.

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-short 'native wallhack' time
About 15 seconds, right? In FF, that's a loooong time.

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-no special grenade
But that's okay, he has the most powerful weapon in the game, moves fast, and still has some frag grens.

Quote:

-1 shot-recharge
You mean the delay time between shots? Well, if you fire a charged shot, you can attack again without any delay. The delay starts when you depress +attack, not when you release. And even without doing a charge+quick attack, you can shoot around two times a second if you're fast.

Quote:

-only useful long distances
Man, this is so fucking BS. It's a tossup to say whether I hate yard dickery snipers or base defense snipers more. Staying in your base lets the other defenders protect you, so you're STILL just as safe as if you were right outside your respawn on the batts. And now you don't have to deal with shoddy hit detection! Or zooming! Or ever coming close to death, since there are usually resupply bags EVERYWHERE!

There are no problems with the sniper that can't be fixed with "more skillzzzz". It's a broken class with too many upsides and not enough downsides.

SSCUJO 01-11-2010 05:12 PM

you make it sound like every sniper has no problem juggling everyone of those draw backs simultaniously, while being hated and chased after by the enemy team. each one of those faults by itself, sure no problem. but all of them. for example.

I am sniping on the battlements as snipers do '90% of the time' say the map is arddvark. im killing lots of people. i see a solider running towards me from across the yard. i charge up and fire, first shot misses (-poor hit detection), i fire a second quick shot doing little dmg (-1 shot-recharge), its a leg shot, 5 seconds of ez kill right? wrong, cuse he's good and he rocket jumps his way right to me. but im zoomed in and i lose him in the air while rocket jumping. (-less sight while aiming) he lands, i find him shortly after but legshot is worn off and he's getting close (-short legshot time), he is now to close to effectively snipe, he climbs the ladder and he is on the battlements. freeze this moment in your head if you could. my options are to cook a grenade most likely not doing enough dmg for a kill(-no special grenade), pray my last charge'd shot hits, or run which i hate. so now what happens. well the distance is almost face to face and the solider clearly has the advantage (-only useful long distances)i have my one charged shot, i have his head lined up perfect, about to let go and fire, until a rocket hits my feet (-only class that can't fire and jump), i pop up, fire, nothing happens. i now have my lone cook'd granade, but once i land from the rocket the second rocket has already left the lancher and im dead (-low armour and hp). end of story.

cute story right? happens every fucking day to me, by multiple classes, it is impossibly easy to kill a sniper, any player with half a brain can do it. one missed shot (happens more often then you think) and thats it, the sniper is toast. play your classes properly and the sniper becomes a horribly under power'd class... or just keep walking out of spawn the exact same way you have been the last 12 spawns and let me pop you in the head for the 13th time i could care less either way.

fact is these are problems that the best snipers have to deal with, and it limits the class greatly, to the point that one shot half a yard a way can decide the snipers life. don't dismiss them because good snipers make them look non existant. every sniper has to deal with them, that is why there are so few dominating snipers, but lots of good ones.

Bridget 01-11-2010 06:37 PM

To be honest, these sound like very minor (in some cases, not even) negatives desperately put together, but it's the quality of his downsides not the quantity. Most of his 'cons' don't even apply to normal usage, and most of them are just plain wrong (as prescribed by you)

Quote:

Sniper is the only class that can't fire and jump!
When is this ever a problem though? Your class shines when he is not under any immediate threat, which he can perpetuate with having the most powerful weapon in the game (usable at long range with special abilities) and seems to be 'socially immune' from criticism, as he runs to and fro between his spawn to avoid anyone who makes it to him (but that's irrelevant, I'm speaking core design.)

If someone manages to close the distance and pops the Sniper up, then should the Sniper be able to fire in the air? No, that would just make him more overpowered, but this con doesn't make him underpowered. It's really an uncommon thing for the Sniper. It's not a downside that affects him all the time.

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Sniper is very slow when he's aiming!
The pros outweigh the cons heavily here. This is just another desperate fact. When the Sniper is aiming, he moves slower. Wow? Yet, he's moving slower with the ability to deal 275 instant points of damage to anyone he just happens to release his mouse on. Yeah, I mean, slow moving just really kills the experience, right?

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Sniper has difficulty with vision when aiming!
This has been pointed out, Snipers only zoom in when they are addressing a target. Besides, zooming in still leaves you with a good amount of vision. You have no scope despite one being present on the weapon, and past attempts to have the development team add one was met with a flock of crying Snipers.

A scope that cut down on vision would be a start toward balancing the Sniper out if he necessarily had to stay (Though, I don't think he should, because he's still privileged over the other classes at his range. He needs to work at medium range with a weapon that rewards consistency.) because he wouldn't see people coming up along the side, which should be a valid fucking tactic. You get to see people across the map in better detail, they become bigger and better to hit, cloaked Spies become plain as day, and so on. The pros outweigh the cons.

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The Sniper is really weak!
This has been addressed. What does it matter, when he will almost always be taking down enemies before they can fight back? Sniper has the immediate upper hand, then once the enemy gets close, they have the upper hand. Compare that to any other class + any other class (minus sniper) and it's a fair engagement, with equal ability to fight back coming near instantly or easily achieved.

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The Sniper has poor hit detection!
Correction: Source has poor hit detection on fast moving targets. This was not a consciously implemented downside. It's not as bad as it seems. People used to tell me about 'missing' yet I played Sniper for a few days (much to the anger of my friends, which made me realize even further how cheap it is — made me feel like a scrub, so I had to go back to Medic/Solly) and seemed to be hitting people with some consistency.

PUB Snipers atop the cliff on Anticitizen seem to have no problem smacking a demoman about to pipe jump at the attacker spawn ladder exit. (Of course, this is an excellent example of where Snipers benefit the team. If it weren't for them, then players would be able to just pipe right past the defense. However, the 'end doesn't justify the means' in such a scenario. The dev team can figure out another way to stop fast advancing O (They have made steps toward it, such as slowing people down in air.)

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Sniper has poor legshot duration!
The legshot used to be thirty seconds, then it became ten seconds, and now it's down to five seconds. This is not a direct downside, though. It doesn't affect the Sniper all the time. Besides, you can stack legshots to increase the duration and slow, and five seconds is enough to get to 90%-95% charge and pop them in the chest or head.

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The Sniper has a short radio tag duration!
Thirty seconds is a short duration for a developer implemented wall-hack? Cry me a river. It wouldn't matter if it only lasted five seconds, it's still essentially a WALL-HACK. Why punish the player if he manages to avoid getting picked off by a Sniper with a lingering radio-tag that only opens him up to getting EMP'd around a corner by the defense? Getting past the Snipers now is a fucking challenge in itself if you're anything over a Scout or Medic.

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Sniper has no special grenade! D:
He can hold four maximum fragmentation grenades, right? Plus, when does he ever need to use a grenade period? When people get close to him? He deserves that weakness at close range. If someone managed to get past his inherently broken mechanics, they should be able to mop the floor with him, but this 'close range weakness' is not a balancing factor. The 'opportunity' is still broken between the Sniper and his victim, he has the immediate upper hand for half of the fight. That's not fair.

Quote:

The Sniper has to recharge his shots!
The base damage does 45 damage (That's 90 damage if you shoot them in the head). That makes the weakest shot from the Sniper rifle akin to a slightly weaker super shotgun with all the pellets crammed into the same spot, with a scope to zoom across the map, and special abilities. The rifle takes a mere five seconds to charge to full capacity too! His abilities can be used instantly as well.

Quote:

The Sniper is only useful at long range!
This is a lie. The Sniper excels at close range even better than long range, for the reasons pointed out. The targets become easier to hit, easier to cripple, easier to headshot, there's no leading shots or hitbox compensation, and so on. I compliment base Snipers for taking some risk, but it's not the same risk that should be inherent in how the class is played, and I still argued that while he should have a powerful weapon at close range to make up for his physical weakness, it should not be AS POWERFUL as the Sniper Rifle currently.

zelenjava 01-11-2010 11:02 PM

actually i tend to have better chances hitting a fast target as a sniper than one not moving. Its usally some random sniper on the other team i have to shoot 20 times and then he finally fires off his one shot and bang he gets me.

I'm a fan of the sniper class, i've played it on TFC (when it was actually skilled). I dont consider FF sniper to be a game of skill at all, i think its purely a case of who can reg. Sniper fights can be long on boring with both players shooting through eachother continuously.. its just crap play.

Being a big sniper fan i still completely agree that in CTF it has no place. If the reg was perfect or not.. its just plain crap to play against one or whatever.. it just doesnt fit. Its fine in AVD though i completely agree there. This game has allot of issues imo, pyro shouldnt be in it, hw is yet another reg class.. its impossible for most of us to do anywhere near as much damage as allot of the better hws on FF.

One thing i would say is if the sniper actually worked to a good standard, i dont think i'll ever understand why he should have grenades on top of a sniper rifle.. if you rape at a distance then you should get raped up close IMO. They certainly shouldn't be able to run back into a spawn and gren you :P

SSCUJO 01-12-2010 02:48 AM

bridget read the story, its a direct example of how those factors cripple the sniper in everyday use. theses are balancing factors as much as you don't like to think so.

i understand bridget your furious about the snipers always killing you, there are a few people who are, there are far more who arn't. the sniper class if anything needs to be buff'd up.

not only are your counter points to my cons horribly one sided, but they are in many cases wrong, as well as your point that this disscussion has nothing to do with skill. the sniper only has an advantage at the hands of a skilled player, long distance one hit kill is useless in the hands of somebody who doesn't know how to use it. you take away the only good thing about the sniper and you take away the class. a mid range sniper is garbage and you know it, it would be far to easy to kill, a sniper requires focus on a snigle target. that requires hiding and not being vulnerable. your mid range idea would create a class that does nothing but die.

also just to point out, the sniper rifle is not the best weapon in the game, it may do that most dmg at full charge but thats a large delay. by far imo the rocket launcher is the best weapon in the game... i mean you don't even need to hit the target to kill it, thats just rediculious.

bridget you also don't seem to pay much attention to the fact that when a sniper misses his one shot he's fucked. no other class can say that. thats one hell of a con.

as for your close range arguement. its not a matter of the sniper having an easier time hitting people, its a matter of the enemy using far more effective guns and being close enough to use them.

as for the legshot, its been explain'd in my story, there are many ways to move quickly with a broken leg especially for only 5 seconds, its not enough protection for the sniper.

on an unrelated note, i have never once in all the time i've played FF hear anyone anywhere complain about an average sniper player, the average sniper player is perfectly balanced within the game, the inherent advantages and disadvantages are less maginified and everyone goes about thier day. people only care about the best snipers in the game, and boy does it piss people off, and starts threads like these all the time.

its not hard, take a different route the sniper won't be watching, he's not overpowered, you just keep walking into his crosshair. play smart and you'll relaize that not only is the sniper not over powered, but it is slightly under powered, and needs to be given more abilities or a buff to its current ones, so that it can be used properly by all its players.

Bridget 01-12-2010 03:55 AM

It's a logical fact and conclusion that the Sniper has an advantage over the other classes at range regardless of who is playing the class. It's not subjective or some personal conclusion. Second, the Sniper Rifle being the 'best' is defined, in my argument, as being the most damaging. Currently, the Sniper Rifle fits this role if we exclude grenades, which no one defines as 'weapons' in the same sense.

Third, The Sniper is in trouble if he misses his shot? Are you sure about that? Let's remember, that's only in close range, where he is expected to get smashed (but is not a good means of balance) At long range, he is at his own leisure and can make multiple shots before the enemy can even get to a range comfortable enough to defend himself.

I said I thought Snipers who played close range were more 'situationally balanced' than those who played long range, but that their weapon was still too powerful at that range, and would have had to been toned down if he were made to be a medium fighter. Seriously, killing someone in one hit? That's fucking stupid. Why play a real class like Soldier where you have to consistently put in effort to kill someone when you can play Sniper and kill people in one hit (long before they can defend themselves or even react)? It's like punching someone in the face during a game of Rock Paper Scissors. It's the cheap way to play.

It's not that snipers piss me off, I have no problem getting sniped from someone in Red Orchestra. Why is that so? Because, they sacrifice something when they go long range. They sacrifice, surprisingly, consistency. They don't get the guarantee of the infantry men who can consistently land their shots at close range. No, they have to adjust for gravity and time as a downside to their scope and ability to kill enemies from range and safety. The bullet has to travel. There is a HUGE DOWNSIDE to their BENEFIT. He's an alternative and not a DIRECT UPGRADE. The Sniper in FF has no considerable downside. NONE. What? Name a considerable downside, not little tiny desperate facts that every class has.

I haven't played Fortress Forever in five months, so the argument isn't as strong as it would be. Your argument, that is, that I am just arguing because I hate snipers. That's not a real argument, that's an attack of my character. Regardless of whether or not I think Sniper is a class for cowards (I do) the content I produce should be addressed.

Hey, I can offer an equal argument to you. You enjoy playing Sniper because it allows you to get easy kills. It's easy killing people who can't fight back!

SSCUJO 01-12-2010 05:25 AM

your damn right i play sniper cuse it gets me easy kills, im good at it and for me i can dominate every player in the map, thats why i play it. but at what point does it become the oppoents responsibility to adapt and adjust to the snipers ability? a good player can make it into my base and onto my battlements without me even noticing, even on ardvark. as a sniper i look at the most populated areas for targets there are suprisingly few people that take a 2 second detour to avoid my crosshair.

without the knowledge of a sniper there is no need to think about your entry into the base, it is a simple conc nothing more, time and time again, because guess what, nothing can touch a concing scout (in pub play) but a great sniper.

so when do the opposing players have to own up to their share of the blame, they are making it easy for the sniper and therefore the sniper is making easy kills. the best snipers in the game can be snuck up on, they do miss, and they do die. it is up to the other team to do that, sure its hard but thats no reason to get rid of the class as it is. the sniper adds a sense of stratagy and balance to a yard that would otherwise be an orgy of granades, concs, and shotties.

i understand your argument with the other games you play, but FF is different from those games, players expect to go fast and do what they want to do quickly, and when that is stopped most players just stop trying. there are endless ways to kill a sniper the way he is now. and there are plently of ways to get the first shot on a sniper, and to sneak up on a sniper, snipers give a sense of challenge to the mid map that could not be replaced by any existing class and would otherwise be non existant.

also i apologize for a personal attack on your character, it was out of line and not my intention.

Bridget 01-12-2010 08:16 AM

No matter how much can be said of strategy and such, the Sniper is still broken because he has an immediate advantage over everyone else. They must earn the advantage, he has it right away. That's stupid.

Credge 01-12-2010 10:57 AM

Bridget, all you have to do to win the argument is state the following:

"Snipers are annoying and one sniper spawns more snipers because snipers lack a true hard counter other than the sniper class."

And you've won. Nobody can refute that as it's evidenced by the majority of pubs with an average sniper. You have one sniper who snipes a few people, they get irritated and go sniper. This continues until the game turns in to a sniper war while both teams have full blown D's. Maybe one or two people will run O.

You don't have to debate the pros and cons of the class. You don't have to debate how he doesn't fit in to the mold of medium and close quarters combat (the reason why the only real counter to a sniper is another sniper).

All you have to say is that the sniper creates an environment in the game that is not conducive to the core of the game. Anything else is just treading water.

Elmo 01-12-2010 12:16 PM

well said credge :p

cjeshjoir™ 01-12-2010 12:40 PM

  • cr_sniper = (1 or 0)
  • More AvD

/thread

reaper18 01-12-2010 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjeshjoir™ (Post 462132)
  • cr_sniper = (1 or 0)
  • More AvD

/thread

Cujo and CJ win this thread.
Sniper is fine.

Bridget 01-12-2010 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper18 (Post 462171)
Sniper is fine.

Sniper is fine only to people with a superficial view of the game.

illogicality- 01-12-2010 09:27 PM

Since the premise of this game is capture the flag, I agree with Bridget that sniper has a naturally unfair advantage over the other classes.

Should we take it out? Probably not. It draws players to this game which has a hurting player-base already. Most (young) gamers, today, will play Sniper because it seems easy and gives them an advantage. Many of them will see other things in the game that can be done, like concing, bunnyhopping, rocket jumping, gren/rocket combos, etc and try to learn those, thus advancing their FF ability and, hopefully, aiding to capturing or defending the flag.

I recently 'returned' from a six month hiatus. When I left I was fed up with the player base for exactly what Bridget was stating - but not just sniper... pyro as well... SOMEONE NERF HIM!! Since returning I've seen a pretty interesting occurrence... the VAST majority of people who ONLY played sniper when I left, six months ago, are now bunnyhopping, playing soldier, etc. Even Leo can play engineer and not JUST snipe. Only very few pyros from before are playing other classes (many still just whore pyro) so maybe the problem isn't with sniper.. maybe it's with flame-o?

Another thing you'll notice is that you won't EVER see a sniper being used in a pickup or actual match because it is a waste.

This truly is a great game but it always needs a draw for new players. Sniper is that draw. I, personally, can deal with the occasional sniper picking me off in mid air but I normally get the last laugh.

Bridget 01-12-2010 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illogicality- (Post 462187)
Should we take it out? Probably not. It draws players to this game which has a hurting player-base already. Most (young) gamers, today, will play Sniper because it seems easy and gives them an advantage.

Should we suffer at the inexperience of someone else? No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by illogicality- (Post 462187)
Many of them will see other things in the game that can be done, like concing, bunnyhopping, rocket jumping, gren/rocket combos, etc and try to learn those, thus advancing their FF ability and, hopefully, aiding to capturing or defending the flag.

I don't know if this is true. It seems backwards. It seems people go Sniper when they fail to pull off concing, bunnyhopping, and so on. Sniper seems the 'last attempt to play FF' class to me. Who needs to learn movement skills and such when you can stand in one spot and kill every other class before they can defend themselves? Lol? Most of the Snipers on pubs have played Sniper for a LONG TIME. They're limiting themselves.



Quote:

Originally Posted by illogicality- (Post 462187)
This truly is a great game but it always needs a draw for new players. Sniper is that draw. I, personally, can deal with the occasional sniper picking me off in mid air but I normally get the last laugh.

I would argue Sniper is a bad 'draw' for new players. Besides, not everyone who plays Sniper is a new player. If we dumb a class down and give it unfair privileges and advantages, then how does it fare in the hands of someone competent? There should be better ways to draw new players besides reserving some broken class for them.

Besides, most new players go Pyro, because a lot of our new arrivals migrate from Team Fortress 2 when they need a break or get pissed off at the TF2 Team's updates. Talos saw a huge surge of players when the last TF2 update (before Soldier/Demo) disappointed a few people. Pyro may be powerful, but at-least he's taking a huge risk as a downside to his power. He has to be point blank range to be effective.

It's the same in TF2! People whine about pyro. Whine about Sniper, he's the broken one! A class that has a range advantage over all the other classes, the other classes don't have any real effective means of closing the distance, and every model is 2x bigger than in TFC or FF and moves much slower. How easy can a class get?

If people ditch their superficial understanding of the Sniper class and stop going "blah blah he's good at ctf, he's a vital team member, blah blah you're just mad blah blah" and realize that he's broken in game mechanics, then . . . They'd understand.

AfterShock 01-13-2010 12:11 AM

I feel very guilty when I go sniper on pubs and make new players leave. I wouldnt really say its a draw for new players.

It's probably the most frustrating class to play against (although pyro comes a close 2nd purely when players run around holding the fire button) because no class can fight back at long range. Every other class in the game works between close and mid range, and thus has some inherent depth to positioning and dodging.

Iggy 01-13-2010 12:20 AM

I could be mistaken... but the last time I checked, bullets/rockets/nails/buckshot all travel the same distance as a sniper shot. Not as fast, but just as far. Make yourself a harder target to hit, and shoot the shit out of them. Bounce around, move randomly, and try shooting back. Snipers are known for not being able to take heavy damage. Deal some to them, and they run. Actually, (Super)Shotgun is/are the best weapon(s), because the buckshot hits instantly, causing some damage.

It's not rocket science, you know.
Some of you are acting like everyone who plays sniper gets an insta-gib everytime they fire.


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