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-   -   (PC) CS:GO and FF's future. (https://forums.fortress-forever.com/showthread.php?t=24506)

Credge 11-22-2014 09:25 AM

CS:GO and FF's future.
 
I put this in gaming because it isn't directly about FF and having it on the general discussion area isn't the best idea for FF.

Here in the next few weeks/months we will be experiencing an apocalypse of epic gaming proportions that will ripple down the history of competitive gaming for a very long time. To summarize what's going on, the Steam Workshop allows players to download any hack without having to do anything.

Here's a breakdown of how this works from the hack creators side.
  • I create a hack and make it hidden in the Steam Workshop.
  • I get people to pay me money to have access to the file.
  • I update the file regularly to do my best to avoid VAC bans.

Here's what it looks like from the players side:
  • I buy access to the Steam Workshop hack.
  • I set it to autodownload and install whenever I log in to my Steam account.
  • I can use these hacks at any LAN without being detected as long as it isn't an obtrusive hack.

This has been going on for as long as the Steam Workshop has existed. Further, because of the nature of these hacks (auto update via steam), they are incredibly hard to detect. Even further, this is extremely similar to what some players were doing when they went to LAN parties or tournaments before the Steam Workshop and it's why some tournaments require you use the mice, keyboards, and headsets they provide.

So, how does this tie in to the future of FF?

Although FF will be moving to a new engine, this game should not have any sort of non-map user content creation. That is to say, if the U4 engine has the ability to have a Steam Workshop styled thing, don't do it. Don't allow Steam Workshop to be a thing with this mod. Don't allow the Steam Workshop to be a thing with Source 2. Do not allow leagues to host your game if they don't actively work against hackers (I'm looking at UCG). Actively seek out those who are not on the up-and-up.

The days of the auto-snap aimbot are long, long gone. The modern face of hacking is very clever and very subtle. No game has been exempt from it, and FF was not exception. We will see in the next few months the face of online competitive gaming, at least in FPS, change dramatically.

FDA_Approved 11-22-2014 10:04 AM

TL;DR version:

Cheaters be cheating, except this time it's the end of the world, and we can't have nice things anymore.

Except for not really, chill out.

AfterShock 11-22-2014 06:25 PM

Until valve just starts noticing and bans all the accounts, because they run steam workshop and probably have all the data they need.

Credge 11-23-2014 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved (Post 504808)
TL;DR version:

Cheaters be cheating, except this time it's the end of the world, and we can't have nice things anymore.

Except for not really, chill out.

Not really. The sophistication of the cheats have been around ages, everyone has known about them, people have used them to win big money in tournaments, and nobody has done anything about it until now.

Here's some fun reading.

http://www.hltv.org/blog/8956-the-tr...ng-bread-cheat

Quote:

Originally Posted by AfterShock (Post 504810)
Until valve just starts noticing and bans all the accounts, because they run steam workshop and probably have all the data they need.

Apparently it's a bit more complicated than one steam workshop file. From my understanding, pieces of this cheat can be found in various items, skins, and collections. The creator of this hack that has recently been outted has also distributed small tiny bits to skin and map makers as a bit of extra coding in textures and the like.

It's really ingenious. It's also a pay for a certain amount of time sort of thing. The entire process is very intricate and not brute-force like most other hacks.

homie in reboks' 11-23-2014 12:11 PM

This is only important in CS:GO because it's professional players that are likely cheating at LAN event with prize pools of $250K.

There's very little incentive to cheat at FF. No one will be wasting their time making cheats for FF that operate in this manner. Why? Because there are no FF LAN events and there are no prize pools of $10 let alone $250K.

Also, this is basically just a regurgitation of the /r/GlobalOffensive thread.

AfterShock 11-23-2014 12:33 PM

reading that thread, there were a few top players using a complex cheat, and they got found out and VAC banned, along with their 2 digit steamID accounts worth £10k

Doesn't sound like cheaters are winning to me.

Anyone who wants to code a cheat purely for FF would probably be better off joining the dev team and coding features for the game instead..

KubeDawg 11-23-2014 06:49 PM

I thought all the 1 and 2 digit accounts were basically all Valve employees/developers.

In any case, this likely will have 0 effect on FF, even if there is some major spark in play once released on Steam and Steam Workshop is open, I really doubt much will come of it. I understand there are much more subtle ways for someone to cheat these days, so as to avoid detection, but I'm of the opinion that if you are clever enough to not get caught with a cheat, then who really cares? In the grand scheme of things, it's just a video game.

Though I'd probably cheat too if I knew I had a decent chance at a $250k prize pool in CS:GO hah, but I'm probably at the opposite of the skill spectrum and cheats would not help me at all.

Credge 11-23-2014 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by homie in reboks' (Post 504814)
This is only important in CS:GO because it's professional players that are likely cheating at LAN event with prize pools of $250K.

There's very little incentive to cheat at FF. No one will be wasting their time making cheats for FF that operate in this manner. Why? Because there are no FF LAN events and there are no prize pools of $10 let alone $250K.

Also, this is basically just a regurgitation of the /r/GlobalOffensive thread.

I do not agree. There's little incentive to cheat in any game when there's nothing on the line, yet, people do it. The fact that people are cheating at LAN events, perform like the following videos, and nobody cares until someone gets VAC banned is even more troubling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNcOqUa93B4#t=592





All of these are the same player. We saw this very behavior in this game with leagues, yet, UGC did nothing and anytime it was brought up the person bringing it out was considered a scrub.

I do not agree that it's only a CS:GO issue. CS:GO is simply a very large game that, unfortunately, shares the same anti-cheat that FF does.

Mainly, the point of the thread isn't to go "SEE, CHEATERS HAPPEN AND IT'S BAD", it's more to expose the how of it all.

Here's some more reading.

http://www.hltv.org/blog/8956-the-tr...ng-bread-cheat

http://www.hltv.org/blog/8959-the-tr...for-him-and-me

FDA_Approved 11-23-2014 08:28 PM

It's more about how you made it seem like the end of the world and that we should completely avoid any non-map workshop integration because of it. That's just absurd.

Quote:

an apocalypse of epic gaming proportions that will ripple down the history of competitive gaming for a very long time.
Quote:

Don't allow Steam Workshop to be a thing with this mod. Don't allow the Steam Workshop to be a thing with Source 2.

homie in reboks' 11-23-2014 08:40 PM

UIT
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge (Post 504817)
I do not agree. There's little incentive to cheat in any game when there's nothing on the line, yet, people do it. The fact that people are cheating at LAN events, perform like the following videos, and nobody cares until someone gets VAC banned is even more troubling.

People do care. People get banned all the time in CS:GO. The reason why cheating is becoming such a huge thing in the CS:GO community now is because PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS are doing it at LAN EVENTS. LAN events are supposed to be cheat free: a true test of skill, if you will. But with KQLY, sf, and smn getting banned that's not true anymore. That is why the cheating thing is so big in CS:GO. Professionals are cheating at LAN events. Not sure why you won't acknowledge that being the main reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge (Post 504817)
All of these are the same player. We saw this very behavior in this game with leagues, yet, UGC did nothing and anytime it was brought up the person bringing it out was considered a scrub.

First off, the guy in your video hasn't been banned for anything yet. You're just witch-hunting him with the rest of /r/GlobalOffensive where you've pulled all your information from. I'm not going to say he doesn't cheat because the evidence makes it look like a possibility, but he hasn't been banned for anything as of now.

As for FF, which league? Season 1? People brought it up all the time I'm pretty sure. Gator and his clan were getting accused all the time. Lots of people from TFC didn't want to play FF because tons of people from TheCatacombs banned list were playing FF. Now, People don't bring up cheating often because if you ban one person you can't play a pickup for the next month. You'd know that if you even played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge (Post 504817)
I do not agree that it's only a CS:GO issue. CS:GO is simply a very large game that, unfortunately, shares the same anti-cheat that FF does.

Mainly, the point of the thread isn't to go "SEE, CHEATERS HAPPEN AND IT'S BAD", it's more to expose the how of it all.

Cheating always a problem for PC gaming, especially FPSs, but do you even know the latest 'hack' that was found for FF? Someone was editing a VMTF file, or some shit, so they could see cloaked spies, and before that it was a memory hack that adjusted interpolate values. The latter started lots of drama and eventually the guy using it just told everyone he was cheating. That's how sophisticated FF hacks are. No one will be hiding hacks in SteamWorkshop for FF.

It's cool you bring it up, but it's not a concern for FF now. Especially since there are easier ways to cheat in FF.

Dexter 11-27-2014 01:58 AM

on a side note since we're a free mod i highly doubt workshop contributors could monetize even if we used workshop?

and yea, anyway even if someone cheats- they either get bored and leave or get banned if its something obvious/eventually. its already happen(ed)(ing)(inging)

KubeDawg 11-27-2014 02:17 AM

Can the workshop allow free things to be installed? If so, that might work as a decent place to host custom maps/other files rather than having to use the forums, pickup site or gamebanana.

ddm999 11-27-2014 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KubeDawg (Post 504834)
Can the workshop allow free things to be installed? If so, that might work as a decent place to host custom maps/other files rather than having to use the forums, pickup site or gamebanana.

Steam Workshop's designed to be a place for mods to go. It is basically a more regulated version of gamebanana that's integrated into Steam.

It is completely designed to be what you just asked.

(Also, what do you mean by free things? Everything's free on Steam Workshop. I'd assume you were confused by credge saying people bought into the hack, which will have been them being added to a private Workshop listing.)

Garry's Mod uses it so that if you connect to a server on a custom map / gamemode, it'll download that map from Steam Workshop if it's been correctly set up. This means maps are quicker to download, because Valve's large serverbase is sending the file rather than your own file server.

KubeDawg 11-27-2014 07:18 PM

Ok cool. That brings up another question. If most of these hacks are found using private workshop files, is there an option to disable private workshop so only the public ones are available?

Headz 11-27-2014 10:43 PM

Did not know much about workshop, but if custom maps can be auto dl'ed from there that sure will be useful for future server owners, at the mo maps for my servers dl to clients from Moto's hosting, which is very kind as saves me a lot of hassle :)

Credge 12-26-2014 07:07 AM

The biggest CS:GO VACation occured. 1,500 players. Pretty much every person I tracked is now banned. It is a good feeling.

It does not make me feel good about the future of competitive FPS though.

Iggy 12-26-2014 07:22 PM

When you go gambling, you don't let people bring their own cards, dice, slot machines, etc.

Watch, in order to prevent cheating, you won't be allowed to bring your own machine. You'll be given a few minutes to configure the game to your liking, but otherwise, stock. I'd even bet the USB ports will be locked. $250k is a lot of fucking money, you'd think the people in charge would have more sense.

Dr.Satan 01-04-2015 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge (Post 504817)
We saw this very behavior in this game with leagues, yet, UGC did nothing and anytime it was brought up the person bringing it out was considered a scrub.

That is just plain BS, and anyone who wants to bring into question UGC, the league, or the policies and procedures of it during any of the seasons I ran that shit can come talk to me. I personally spent HOURS upon HOURS reviewing match footage to properly follow through on EVERY accusation, that was reported per policy. As did several members of the UGC Staff, including Padawan and a lot of the TF2 admins from back then.

The amount of times I was up until 4am tediously going through every minute of gator or vinny's matches is ridiculous and that all was verified by another admin, ALWAYS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by homie in reboks' (Post 504819)
Cheating always a problem for PC gaming, especially FPSs, but do you even know the latest 'hack' that was found for FF?

There have always been wall hacks and aimbots as well...even back when I was active...

homie in reboks' 01-04-2015 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan (Post 505988)
I personally spent HOURS upon HOURS reviewing match footage to properly follow through on EVERY accusation

Thanks for actually going through all that footage. I wasn't around for that era of FF, but I can understand it's a lot of work to go through demo after demo.

Lots of people want to make lazy accusations for cheating, but don't really understand that it's kind of hard to compile any evidence unless it's super blatant or the user makes clear indications / mistakes.

What happens now in FF is lots of baseless accusations without any evidence. If you can't get the evidence then you can't convict somebody of doing anything wrong.

Basically, just going through and trying to compile evidence is the biggest hurdle for any admin of a league. Players may not think the admins are doing anything, but they are; it's just not readily visible. It would be a worse environment if admins just started banning people with no evidence and purely word of mouth backing.

I guess that's pretty off-topic from the original post, but FF isn't in really much of a position to have workshop injected hacks enter the scene.

oaties 01-04-2015 09:54 PM

I'd be so happy if there were premium hacks for Fortress Forever.

Just means we made it baby.


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