Just to bring this back into the conversation (or attempt to).

I'm not exactly sure why Bridget is so intent on trying to prove that the sniper is overpowered. That point is largely irrelevant, and it doesn't really matter if it's true or not.

That would be a very valid analogy if every sniper had auto-aim and couldn't miss. Fortunately, this isn't the case.

It's about the mechanic of a game with various classes that each have particular situational strengths and weaknesses. That's TF in a nutshell though.

It's an argument of potential.

That would no longer be an analogy. The point is, any mechanic can be made to be "balanced", but that doesn't mean it's not broken.

Point taken. How do you avoid getting into a long range situation, though?

well whats considered long range? ardvark obviously, but i would say the bats on 2fort are mid range and other classes can effectively combat the sniper, honestly i can't think of more then maybe 1 or 2 maps with really large yards (maybe a few more maps have large yards but none the sniper can properly take advantage of). sure the sniper is great at long range but most of the maps are midrange (excluding AvD but the sniper has other purposes there).

as i said breifly if you removed arddvark from map rotation 90% of sniper problems would just disappear as per a lack of being able to use the snipers greatest asset... long range.

Dropdown, Crossover, Monkey, Shutdown2, Well, Pitfall, Bases, Aardvark, CZ2, Tiger, Anticitizen, Palermo

Every class has an advantage in particular situations. That doesn't mean it's broken.

The same way you avoid meeting a soldier in a tight corridor or a demo with pipes laid on security - don't play offense. Good defensive players all pick an environment that benefits their class and the offense must confront them there or find another way around (which is often not possible); the sniper is no different.

There's no such thing as a fair fight between two different classes and that's fine - it's an important part of a class-based game. Again, if this is about balance over all situations than let's remove class-based situational advantages and reduce the number of classes to one. An overall balance is what we're looking for - and I think the sniper's weakness at close range does a pretty good job of offsetting its strength at long range.

CZ2? Really? With the exception of aardvark and the third CP on anticitizen (I might give you tiger, which is never played, too) none of these maps give the sniper a huge advantage. Does the sniper have a clear advantage on aardvark (which, I think it's worth at least mentioning, is very popular for a map with such huge problems)? Of course, it's a GREAT sniper map. Does a spy have a clear advantage on congestus? Hell yeah they do - they rape that map and frustrate the crap out of me. Some maps are going to be better for certain classes because the classes are not (and are not meant to be) equal across all situations - there are a couple of great maps for the sniper (as well as for pretty much every other class).

I forgot about that one. Yep, congestus too is a good map for Snipers.

Monkey has a huge yard. Snipers pick off people from beside the platforms or as they come over the bridge (+5 to the map designer, who decided to at-least be considerate of slow moving O classes by making the bridge raised a bit. This gives you some distance without being shot at. Though, I'm afraid, it's not that much of a benefit.)

Dropdown has a gigantic yard as well and many Snipers pick off the offense even before they enter the yard through the slots beside the upper spawn. There's the water route that takes forever to navigate and almost always deals damage to you by the time you get to air; That's if you manage to make it to the water route before getting slugged in the chest.

Let's not forget the specifically made Sniper posts on Shutdown2, which are elevated just enough to give the Snipers an overlook to the second half of the yard on the enemies side. Snipers also camp on the upper level of the map, where you are required to go out of your way to get up there. You usually have to go up your own sniper post ladder, which leads to getting insta-gibbed coming up the ladder. There's the ladders inside the bunker, but same thing happens there. You can try a grenade+RJ but that'll knock you down to next to no health.

Well is not that bad, I would consider removing it from the list, but anyone can camp on these little 'conc exits' and claim people are spawn spamming if the offense throw nades up there (I've been banned from two servers for this) and Snipers camp on the roof picking off people exiting from the lifting doors long before they can react. They usually get 'tunneled' to these doors because so many Snipers are hogging the conc exits.

Crossover has two Sniper spots. The first one is the high-rise bunkers. You can pretty much pick off anyone from these bunkers with safety. Then there's the area overlooking the flag. Yep, it's not that bad, but definitely bullshit. You don't even need range as a Sniper, 'cause map makers throw in shit like this which allows you to hide behind chunks of cover. It's like that on openfire. You fire out of a slit in the wall which protects your body. Brb laughing

Pitfall? I think the gigantic fucking yard speaks for itself. This map isn't played that often, but it is another 'Sniper haven'. There is no cover in the yard and the grate platform means practically advertising yourself when trying to cross the yard. There is NO alternate route. You're fucked.

Anticitizen is antisniper on the second cap, but the first capture point and the third capture point are nice for Snipers. The first one isn't that bad, but the third capture point is a fucking NIGHTMARE. It is the WORST MAP for those getting sniped. It's worse than Aardvark. The Snipers have the HEIGHT ADVANTAGE as WELL as the RANGE advantage. There is NO WAY you can fight back there, unless a friendly demoman pipes you to hell and back.

Palermo? That entire map is huge. There are so many Sniper friendly spots on that map. I don't think I need to explain anything here. Just play the map. There's windows everywhere, there's the tower with the window, you can grenade jump up above the map, you can snipe from the boats, from the last capture point down to the lower level, from the platform to the third capture point (grenade jump up) oh my god it's terrible.

Bases? It's not that bad, but there are so many spots Snipers can hide behind on the upper and lower level behind the little platform in front of the flag capture point. Even if you managed to get across the map, it's an easter-egg hunt trying to find the bastard. Again, not that bad, but the Sniper does have a range advantage. Let's not forget the two Sniper towers. Snipers firing out of protective windows. PROTECTIVE! WHOOP! Gotta love that.

CZ2? Yeah. I'll take that back.

I don't think that any of the maps on your list (except for aardvark and the third CP on anticitizen) provide a huge advantage to snipers. Just because a map has sniper spots or a yard doesn't make it an ideal sniping map - most of the positions that you mentioned are very vulnerable and some of them are downright awful spots. Pitfall might qualify too just because of the large yard though, but I think the angles are funny, the sniper is still very vulnerable, and it's not really played anyways.

A lot of maps have enclosed hallways too, but unless the map is full of them or there's one beast of a hallway in a key position (2fort's spiral?) it doesn't necessarily make it an amazing map for soldiers.

That maplist makes it sound like you're complaining about all long-to-medium distance environments whereas before you were complaining about the advantage the sniper has in these environments. I suppose you can take the indirect rout and nurf the sniper by removing all of the yards and battlements from each map.. but there's nothing wrong with the sniper class having an advantage at long range and there's nothing wrong with long range environments existing. Only very few maps (~1.3 by my count) are really amazing for snipers.

That's part of the problem. It's unfair to both the victims of the Sniper and to the Sniper himself that he is only effective on some of the maps. Where's the consistency where every class has about equal opportunity on every map? Sniper dominates specific maps, but can you name any maps where any of the other classes dominate? I mean really dominate, where they're guaranteed on the top of the scoreboard only because the map caters to them. I can't think of a single one.

Besides, as Squeek said, "How do you avoid getting into a long range situation, though? " You can easily avoid getting caught in a hallway with a Soldier. You can easily avoid getting cramped up with a Pyro. Even if you did, you could fight back with them. There are dozens of ways around them that are just as effective and intuitive that allow you to fight back. You don't need an entire 'off the map' route to the enemy base specifically built because one class is such a problem. Oh, "Don't go offense" is not a valid suggestion. That's a laughable idea, and proves my point that Sniper influences DvD. That's exactly what people get beat down to. "I'll just stop running offense." That's not how you should be playing FF.

Also, what do you mean Pitfall's angles are funny? Once you step out of your upper spawn on pitfall, you round the corner and have a huge window to snipe out of straight down the center of the map. It's not even about maps catering to classes, really, it's just the fact that there are so many spots that directly put the enemy at long range to you as he rounds a corner or steps out from behind a door. If you step into a yard with a Soldier across the map, what is there to worry about? Just like you, he has to get close to deal considerable damage and you can dodge his shots. Sniper? Whoop, doesn't have to.

It's the fact that these maps have such huge yards and sniping spots to begin with. A sniping spot wouldn't be a sniping spot within the context of FF if it didn't provide concealment and a long range advantage. In order to cross most maps in Fortress Forever, you have to travel through the yard or spots chalk full of sniping spots. In order to play the game, you have to get past a Sniper. You have to subject yourself to the long range disadvantage. Even if you're going toward an alternate route, it's almost always at the center of the map. You still have to make it half way across the yard to get to it. Almost every map puts you at range. The Sniper gets the immediate upper-hand instead of earning it.

Oh yeah, that old suggestion to 'learn how to juke' is a bad one too. The Soldier reminds me. If a Soldier or Engineer is shooting you from across the map, you usually have an indicator of where they are coming from to adjust your juking. If a railgun beam or rocket is cutting through the air, you have a visual representation of the shot that you can intuitive and visually dodge. You get feedback if your juking is effective or not. What about the Sniper? It's all about luck. Thrash around as violently as you can to throw off his aim not dodge his shots. There's no visual 'clue' that you're even doing good. There's no feedback to help you adjust your juking. You're a fish out of water begging to luck.

Yep . . .

There's no map like that for the sniper either. I'm absolutely just as likely (perhaps more likely, even) to be on top of the scoreboard as an engineer on destroy as I am with a sniper on aardvark (my k:d as an engy are always about a kill better than as a sniper). I've seen many average snipers that don't consistantly earn the top score on aardvark, it's only the handful of good ones (this community is small, so you see all 6 of them relatively often) that can do it consistently.

How do you avoid getting caught in a hallway with a solider if that's the only rout to or from the flag (even in my 2fort example you've got to double conc your way up the elevator if you want to get around spiral). How do you avoid trying to dodge the pipes laid on security. Don't play offense. My point wasn't that you shouldn't play offense (the sarcasm seems lost on you), but that you should get used to the fact that you've got to get around people in very powerful positions for their particular class and that's not limited to the sniper, so why single it out?

It has a large yard, but the sniping spots are very accessible immediately once you get close to the base. The biggest problem with aardvark isn't the big yard, it's that the sniper has a respawn to their back that no enemies can get through. It's a very secure position (which is awesome, IMO).

In order to get to the flag in a majority of FF maps, you've got to get through the pipes laid on security or a solider positioned in a hallway. There's really no fundamental difference here - the offense either fights at a huge disadvantage or they do their best to get around.

That's simply not true. There are many many scouts that easily get past snipers every time out. It's definitely not that these people are super-lucky, it's about juking the sniper in the same way deactivating security is about juking the demoman with pipes laid. He's just trying to throw them off. You might not realize it but yes, you do get better with practice.

We're still going in circles...

I avoid getting caught in the hallway with a Soldier by not going into the hallway, and even if I did get caught in that hallway, I could fight back and determine my victory in getting past the Soldier with some skill. I can't avoid being at a disadvantage with the Sniper for the most part. I can't fight back with the Sniper until I overcome that distance disadvantage (which is a distance advantage for him). It's that simple. Is it so difficult to understand?

Stop fucking comparing the Sniper's HUGE advantage to the Soldier dominating hallways or the Pyro dominating some enclosed area or something like that. It is a false equivalency. I can avoid those situations or fight back in those situations. I can interact and play intuitively. I can not fight back with the Sniper on the other end of the map nor can I avoid being at a range disadvantage given how the maps are laid out. Fix the maps or trash the garbage Sniper class? I think the answer is obvious.

Every class, for the millionth time, has their advantage at close range. The maps are laid out so that there is some distance between them. Every class except the Sniper gains his advantage by closing the distance. You want to play effective? You play at close range where everyone else is effective and take a fucking risk, grow some balls, play the game for what it's worth. You don't camp on your battlements shooting people who can't fight back because you're too anal-sore to play a class that is fair and engaging. The Sniper is an exception to how this game is played (in terms of range of effectiveness before you get all nitpicky about it) by every other class. That is not fair. There is no argument. I'm just trying to get you to be a little intellectually honest. You're playing a broken class. End of discussion.

Does the Scout play at long range? Nope. Does the Soldier? Nope. Does the Medic? Nope. Does the Demoman? Nope. Does the Pyro? Nope? Spy? Nope. Engineer? Nope. . . And so on and so on. Hm, that seems like a pattern. Seems like close range play is supposed to be common here in this game. Seems pretty fair, hm. Seems it. Yeah? Seems like people all fight at their best at close range and therefore can defend themselves or damage the enemy, yeah? Hm? Yeah. Seems it, yeah? Yeah.

Oh, what about the Sniper? OH, HE SHOOTS PEOPLE ACROSS THE MAP. HE'S A LONG RANGE CLASS IN A GAME FULL OF CLOSE RANGE CLASSES. THAT'S FAIR, RIGHT GUYS? THAT'S FUN. THAT MAKES THE GAME REALLY FUN. WEEEE! WHAT A FUN FAIR BALANCED CLASS. WOO. DON'T WORRY, I'LL RATIONALIZE IT.

No.

To be honest Bridget, I think he's got a point. It does seem like you're singling the sniper out.

I think I really only have one ting left to say about all this.

1) By running an offense in a map like Aardvark for example -- Unless your the only one running offense, you're not going to get hit every time. in fact with 3 people running an offense, you're chance of being hit even by king is about 10 -15%; factoring in misses and hits. So it's not all that bad.

2) This is an example: Last night in Talos, we were having a good game in Medieval_b6, O vs D. That is until King and Blackout came in. And we all know that 90% of the time when they come in together, their going to Snipe together. Which makes this almost impossible to run an offense at all. And for me that takes away the fun in the game. It kills the flow of the game. And based off the way it makes me feel, I'll give up. Because the truth is, We ALL know that the two alone are really damn good snipers. You pair them together and it's ridiculously crazy and unfair. The only way an offense can get by that kind of power is if you send about 2 over there to fuck with them the entire game and even then, that can be frustrating.

3) Based off what I said at 2 - King, Blackout. We know you are really good at what you do, but stop exploiting those skills in public matches. You literally scared off 2 new players last night. They were enjoying the majority of the game until they found out about how ridiculous a sniper can be, and said "Fuck this game." and left. Make it FAIR for EVERYONE in the server. There's more then just excuses out there for people to NOT want you to play sniper. It just destroys balance in a game.

I'm singling out the Sniper because he's the only class that kills people from long range. Every other class does their dirty work at close or medium range. He's the exception, so of course I am 'singling him out'. Eh?

It doesn't fucking matter whether or not you get hit. It doesn't fucking matter if you can make it across the yard or not. It's the fact that somewhere on the other side of that yard there's one class that plays his entire game at long range, a leisure, advantage, benefit, pro, etc that no other class has in this game. This is the 'core' of how this class plays, not a unique 'skill'. Do not compare it to the Spy's cloak, because that's a problem in another sense. Post after post, this point is missed. It is missed time and time again that this is an argument about the Sniper's essential means of play. People (I am included in this, which is why I am irritated.) have driven the discussion from that point.

Here we go. Last chance to get to the heart of the issue. Do you guys think it is fair that one class has the leisure of maximum effectiveness at long range in a game where the remaining nine classes are all limited to close to medium range for their effectiveness, which in turn leads to them not being able to defend themselves effectively, if at all, given default ranges for almost every map?

Answer that question. Don't red-herring. It's a yes or no answer. No more false equivalence. No more bullshit. Answer the question. YES? NO?

There are certain hallways that you can't avoid. Remind me how you're going to avoid security again? You can't avoid being disadvantaged by any defensive classes for the most part (and if you can, they're playing in a bad spot). If you're on offense playing against a good solider, you're just as likely to kill him (and perhaps more likely to get past him) in a hallway as you are a good sniper in the yard. If you're playing a good demoman, all you can do is juke them and make them blow their pipes early.

You can't fight back against a spy until you overcome the cloaking disadvantage (which is an advantage for him). It's that simple. Is it so difficult to understand?

There's no such thing as a fair fight between classes. You're going to be at a disadvantage regardless.

There's nothing wrong with either. Situational advantages based on class are a fundamental part of a game with several classes. If you want to take away situational advantages than there needs to be one single class.

Every class, for the millionth time, has their advantage in plain sight. Every class except the spy gains his advantage by being visible. You play without a cloak where everyone else is effective and take a fucking risk, grow some balls, play the game for what it's worth. You don't camp with a cloak on and backstab people who can't fight back because you're too anal-sore to play a class that is fair and engaging. The spy is an exception to how this game is played (in terms of range of invisibility, before you get all nitpicky about it) by every other class. This is not fair. There is no argument. I'm just trying to get you to be a little intellectually honest. The spy is a broken class. End of discussion.

I can go ahead and type one of those up for every feature that is unique to a particular class if you'd like?
Does the Scout build SGs? Nope. Does the Soldier? Nope. Does the Medic? Nope. Does the Demoman? Nope. Does the Pyro? Nope? Spy? Nope. Sniper? Nope. . . And so on and so on. Hm, that seems like a pattern. Seems like not being able to produce buildables out of thin air is supposed to be common here in this game... etc. etc. etc.

Oh what about the Engineer? OH HE BUILDS MACHINES ALL OVER THE BASE. HE'S A CLASS THAT BUILDS SHIT IN A GAME FULL OF CLASSES THAT CAN'T BUILD SHIT. THAT'S FAIR, RIGHT GUYS? THAT'S FUN. THAT MAKES THE GAME REALLY FUN. WEEEE! WHAT A FUN FAIR BALANCED CLASS. WOO. DON'T WORRY, I'LL RATIONALIZE IT.

No.

I could put one of those together for each class too. Still going nowhere with this thread...

I'm singling out the spy because he's the only class that can be invisble. Every other class does their dirty work in the world of the seeing. He's the exception, so of course I am 'singling him out'. Eh?

The solider's 'essential means of play' is the ability to fire rockets. No other class has rockets that do a ridiculous amount of splash damage. It is missed time and time again that this is an argument about each class having a different advantages and disadvantages that benefit them in particular situations.

Absolutely yes.

It's also fair for one class to have the leisure of maximum effectiveness when cloaked in a game where the remaining nine classes are all limited to the universe of visibility, which in turn leads to them not being able to defend themselves effectively, if at all, given default layouts for almost every map.

It's also fair for one class to have the leisure of maximum effectiveness when building SGs in a game where the nine remaining classes are all limited to the inability to build guns, which in turn gives them a disadvantage. etc. etc. etc.

This thread is simply pointing out that the sniper has an advantage over range, just like every other class has an advantage in particular situations. The classes are balanced over all situations, but each class has situations where they excel. The fact that there are different classes with different abilities is an important part of TF. We're going nowhere.

We covered that a page ago...

Sorry, but IMO this whole thread is based on a real bad argument. You picked the sniper in this thread, I picked the spy in another, maybe next time we'll target the engy, soldier, or demoman. They've all got unique abilities that give them an advantage in particular situations - that doesn't mean they're broken, it just means they're a part of a game with different classes that each have different (and often FRUSTRATING!) abilities. Welcome to TF Bridget.

I found this humorous.

It's not the particular ability that is the problem. It's the range that it takes place at.

The Soldier is the only class that can deal splash damage to you directly, but it takes place at close range, a situation you can avoid and a situation where you can fight back.

The demoman is the only class that can lay down a pipe trap, but you can avoid it and/or kill the Demoman to break it. You can interact and counter it. It takes place at close range.

The Pyro? The only class that can deal continuous damage to you and (beside the Medic) have it linger on far after you have killed him or he has gotten away. This is takes place . . . <drumroll> close range.

The Heavy? He's got a big fucking assault cannon that rips through enemies left and right. It is arguably the best close range weapon. Wait a minute? Did I . . . ? Yeah, I said close range.

The Spy has a cloak. While this is a problem, it's a bit risky for the Spy to pull off. He has to get into that position and be able to stay in that position without getting pushed into the open and exposed. Sinking your knife into someone's back happens at really close range.

The Engineer is the only class that can make a sentry gun. It does most of his work for him, picking off enemies that stray mindlessly into its field of view. It comes equipped with some rockets and pings when Spies are near. What a unique item that works best at close range!

The Civilian doesn't do much. He whacks people with his umbrella. Whack whack, all day long, trying to make a mad dash for the exit. If anyone dares enter close range with him, he might be able to beat them down without fucking up his top hat or displacing his monocle.

The Medic's a pretty swell guy, y'see. He heals people. He infects people. He does this with this thing called a medkit, a dual-purpose tool that requires he be right on the enemy at close range. While perma-infection is a problem, you'd be missing the point I'm trying to make. NOT BIG SURPRISE.

We got this little fella named the Scout. Now, he doesn't do much combat damage. He usually makes a rush for the flag, having to juke shots and concussion grenade over people's heads, something no other class can do, but he's a brave little guy, 'cause he has to do this while under fire at close range.

All the while, Mr. Sniper. . .

It's not the particular ability that is the problem. It's the condition of invisibility that it takes place in.

The Soldier is the only class that can deal splash damage to you directly, but it takes place while visible, a situation you can avoid and a situation where you can fight back.

The demoman is the only class that can lay down a pipe trap, but you can avoid it and kill the Demoman to break down his pipe trap to avoid it. You can interact and counter it. It takes place while visible.

The Pyro? The only class that can deal continuous damage to you and (beside the Medic) have it linger on far after you have killed him or he has gotten away. This is takes place . . . <drumroll> while visible.

The Heavy? He's got a big fucking assault cannon that rips through enemies left and right. It is arguably the best close range weapon. Wait a minute? Did I . . . Did you? Yeah, he's visible too.

The Sniper has range. Sniping someone from a distance happens while visible.

The Engineer is the only class that can make a sentry gun. It does most of his work for him, picking off enemies that stray mindlessly into its field of view. It comes equipped with some rockets and pings when Spies are near. Unique ability that works while visible.

The Civilian doesn't do much. He whacks people with his umbrella. Whack whack, all day long, trying to make a mad dash for the exit. If anyone dares come at him while visible, he might be able to beat them down without fucking up his top hat or displacing his monocle.

The Medic's a pretty swell guy, y'see. He heals people. He infects people. He does this with this thing called a medkit, a duo-purpose tool that requires he be right on the enemy while visible. While perma-infection is a problem, you'd be missing the point I'm trying to make. NOT BIG SURPRISE.

We got this little fella named the Scout. Now, he doesn't do much combat damage. He usually makes a rush for the flag, having to juke shots and concussion grenade over people's heads, something no other class can do, but he's a brave little guy, 'cause he has to do this while under fire while visible.

All the while, Mr. Spy. . .


Are we done here, or should I just replace the above with 'with no machines helping him'?