Elected Representatives crossing state lines as a stalling tactic

[Innoc]

I'm sure most of you have heard a little something about the situation in Wisconsin. I'm sure you all know this isn't the only technique used to stall movement in legislative bodies. However, I wonder how many of you believe that it's ok to simply leave your job to stall an action you don't like? Yeah, my bias is evident I'm sure. I am however curious if there's anyone here that believes that it's a legitimate action on the part of the objectors. Do you likewise believe that there should be no consequence for what it is they do by avoiding their duty.

[Iggy]

They took a page from the Nazi party. Considering everything else going on in this country, I don't see why people are so surprised.

[Etzell]

They took a page from the Nazi party. Considering everything else going on in this country, I don't see why people are so surprised.
Godwin.

As far as you go, Innoc, you're exactly right. Especially with the teachers in Wisconsin leaving their jobs to protest... Nothing says: "I do this job to help the kid" like not teaching them.
Now, I understand maybe the teachers have valid points, but now is not the time to pull shit like that. Do it over summer.

[Innoc]

Godwin.

As far as you go, Innoc, you're exactly right. Especially with the teachers in Wisconsin leaving their jobs to protest... Nothing says: "I do this job to help the kid" like not teaching them.
Now, I understand maybe the teachers have valid points, but now is not the time to pull shit like that. Do it over summer.
My thought is that if they believe they have a view that's worth pursuing then stay engaged and continue the dialogue. In this case of the Wisconsin legislators I believe that the dialogue, discourse and debate is a significant part of what they were elected to carry out. If there's a procedural issue with how things get carried out that needs to be addressed then do it...but run away instead?

[stray kitten]

This is an example of why I continually fear an ever increasing power base of government reach and influence. It's inflexible and impossible to make rational changes. And perhaps another example of why I view SOME government workers as leeches. Especially in a severe economic downturn. If GM can't pay their creditors they go bankrupt, get taken over by the government and forced into severe overhaul. Wisconsin legislators and "national" socialist workers just bury their head in the sand. Do what the rest of us do, polish your fucktard resume and start thinking what if? Same with California. It's hard to force leeches into making that Obama sacrifice. In their minds they already have. In recent years I have began to consider Baby boomers, the "hope and change" fucktard generation. Everything is about their "benefit".

[GenghisTron]

This is just one of many tools used by politicians to go around the rules. I'm not sure what the issue is here, because this kind of questionable stuff happens all the time, by both parties, local, state, or federal.

[stray kitten]

The bottom line issue is GOVERNMENT workers paid with OUR (or in this case the people of Wisconsin) TAX dollars which are PUBLIC FUNDS OWNED BY THE PEOPLE - Have a "RIGHT" to collective bargaining. AKA Unionizing against the PEOPLE. Much like a factory worker paid by private funds at a GM plant. When did we get away from the idea that public workers and elected officicials are servants of the people? And when faced with a very hard decision the elected servant of the people ran like little crying babies.

And when did the legions of liberal democrats in this country start to consider this basic tenant of democracy UNION BUSTING? Especially the president who himself takes an oath. And resides over literally millions of people paid by our tax dollars who rightfully to NOT have the right to form a Union AGAINST the people.

[Bridget]

wat

[BinaryLife]

I thought the democrats left because they wanted to stall the decision until it made some kind of sense. I honestly don't think that warrants the "abuse of government" thought process. I think a lot of things need to change but with the government the way it is, BOTH sides are using cheap tactics to get their way.

Also the debates on this thread seem t assume that the teachers are ridiculous in their actions when in actuality 50,000 is not that much and they aren't all that wealthy. There are much more wealthy individuals who have bought out the government's decision not to tax them instead and frankly I think that's the bigger story. The teachers are just trying to protect their smaller piece of the pie. And doing it by protesting is certainly not as sleazy and backhanded as the alternative.

[Innoc]

I thought the democrats left because they wanted to stall the decision until it made some kind of sense. I honestly don't think that warrants the "abuse of government" thought process. I think a lot of things need to change but with the government the way it is, BOTH sides are using cheap tactics to get their way.

Also the debates on this thread seem t assume that the teachers are ridiculous in their actions when in actuality 50,000 is not that much and they aren't all that wealthy. There are much more wealthy individuals who have bought out the government's decision not to tax them instead and frankly I think that's the bigger story. The teachers are just trying to protect their smaller piece of the pie. And doing it by protesting is certainly not as sleazy and backhanded as the alternative.
Really? So completely these legislators were elected by the people to perform work related to the operation of the state. They disagree with the Governor so they simply stop working and leave the state? How is that not abuse? The state has established processes and procedures. As a legislator you do not have the right to pick and choose which ones you will and will not follow. If you don't like it....there are processes for which change can be effected. To simply stop working is abuse.

Unfortunately it seems that if the people of Wisconsin do not like it their sole recourse is recall.

[Crazycarl]

Politicians are meant to work? lol. They are elected to protect the interests of their constituents, and if the situation is dire enough, stalling tactics may be the way to do that. If it's just a stunt that accomplishes nothing, it shouldn't be done.

[Iggy]

100% agree with Innoc. Wait, that's twice this year we've agreed on something! The world is gonna come to an end! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! :twisted:

[Innoc]

Politicians are meant to work? lol. They are elected to protect the interests of their constituents, and if the situation is dire enough, stalling tactics may be the way to do that. If it's just a stunt that accomplishes nothing, it shouldn't be done.
Why should should the behavior of elected officials be different from those they serve? None of us would have a job if we behaved in this manner...nor should we.

Iggy, I'm glad we agree. Something to discuss over a beer or two.

[Crazycarl]

Because their job is completely different from anyone else's. If I hired someone to represent me, walking out on a meeting might be what serves my interests best.

[Innoc]

Because their job is completely different from anyone else's. If I hired someone to represent me, walking out on a meeting might be what serves my interests best.
On that you and I cannot agree. So long as our representatives behave as if they follow different rules than the common man or that they are not obligated to follow established procedures for the body in which they serve I do not believe that anything will ever improve.

Our Government is of the people, by the people and for the people. Avoiding doing your job is not what the people do.

[Iggy]

Why should should the behavior of elected officials be different from those they serve? None of us would have a job if we behaved in this manner...nor should we.

Iggy, I'm glad we agree. Something to discuss over a beer or two.

Even if we don't agree, we can always discuss things over a beer or two. ;)

[Bridget]

Representative government is dumb, anyway. Over time, the people put too much confidence in the politicians who represent them to the point where they become apathetic to their condition, and allow said representatives to fuck things up left and right. Representation should exist on the individual level, because if you have to take on that burden, you're going to make sure you go out of your way to have an interest in the condition of the world around you. If you get babysit, then not at all. It's like "free" health-care. Paying for health-care out of your own pocket will always provide you with a larger incentive to stay fit because it's at your cost, while having the burden shifted on the whole of society eases you up to live like a slob.

[Iggy]

Did you guys hear that the republicans pushed it through last night, while the dems were still on their out of state protest?

To play devil's advocate; it serves them right. Maybe now they'll go back to work, and try to fix the situation.

[FrenchToast]

Bridget, that's retarded.

[Bridget]

No, it's common sense.

[SizeableSSonic]

*yawn*

Are the Democrats ridiculously wrong for acting like spoiled children? Yes.

Are the Republicans massive hypocrites for calling the Democrats out on this after their party did what was essentially the same thing in the Senate for the past two years? You bet.

Mop mop mop, all day long, mop mop mop while I sing this song...

[FrenchToast]

No, it's common sense.

And explains why America with it's backward medical system has almost NO obese people, especially when compared with other countries.

[Innoc]

*yawn*

Are the Democrats ridiculously wrong for acting like acting like spoiled children? Yes.

Are the Republicans massive hypocrites for calling the Democrats out on this after their party did what was essentially the same thing in the Senate for the past two years? You bet.

Mop mop mop, all day long, mop mop mop while I sing this song...
Good thing the Republican Party left me a long time ago hmmn?

[Bridget]

And explains why America with it's backward medical system has almost NO obese people, especially when compared with other countries.

l2read

[FrenchToast]

It's like "free" health-care. Paying for health-care out of your own pocket will always provide you with a larger incentive to stay fit because it's at your cost, while having the burden shifted on the whole of society eases you up to live like a slob.

Please explain.

[Bridget]

Use fucking deductive reasoning.

[FrenchToast]

I tried that and you told me I needed to learn how to read. You're having trouble backing up your claim here...

[Bridget]

I haven't attempted to back up my claim. Use deductive reasoning. It's not that difficult.

[FrenchToast]

I'm actually genuinely curious where I'm wrong on this one, please explain what point you were trying to make.

[Bridget]

It's a simple point, 'tardo. People tend to easily spend other people's money, but when it comes to their own money, they are usually pretty conservative. People having to pay health-care costs gives people an incentive to take care of themselves, because it's on their dime. Socialized health-care spreads the burden so thin that people have less of that incentive. Americans are fat fucks for other reasons; I never implied it was the only variable. Hell, I never even implied that it was the case. Socialized health-care isn't going to make things better, though.

[FrenchToast]

Oh okay, so I did completely understand what you were trying to say, it just doesn't really seem to hold up in the real world or make much sense.

[Bridget]

Get around to living in the real world, then.

[FrenchToast]

Touche

[BinaryLife]

Sorry I didn't respond right away innoc. Things got carried away here too I see. But the governor is not their boss. They aren't reporting to him they are reporting to their voters. If their voters want something then they should be trying to get it. Not I'm not normally in favor of breaking the rules but in all honesty the republicans break the rules all the time and as soon as a democrat tip toes over the line. The republicans freak out like it's the worst thing in the world. I would like to see neither side break rules or use stupid stall tactIcs but when one team is always cheating, and getting away with it then the other team starts to look like chumps for not cheating too.

In this situation cheating has evaded rational debate about how to deal with that states economy. The republicans clearly think that state funding for teachers should be cut in order to protect the top income brackets from paying taxes and the democrats disagree. Instead of discussing why and coming to a compromise each side has circumvented the rules in favor of strategy and prevented any real help from being accomplished. This if my frustration's source.

[stray kitten]

It's a simple point, 'tardo. People tend to easily spend other people's money, but when it comes to their own money, they are usually pretty conservative. People having to pay health-care costs gives people an incentive to take care of themselves, because it's on their dime. Socialized health-care spreads the burden so thin that people have less of that incentive. Americans are fat fucks for other reasons; I never implied it was the only variable. Hell, I never even implied that it was the case. Socialized health-care isn't going to make things better, though.

deductive reasoning tells me this is the core of why I hardly ever support democrat a.k.a. liberal policies. Americans are fat because they have learned to be lazy and selfish. Another democrat a.k.a. liberal policy.

[Iggy]

deductive reasoning tells me this is the core of why I hardly ever support democrat a.k.a. liberal policies. Americans are fat because they have learned to be lazy and selfish. Another democrat a.k.a. liberal policy.

Sad part is, going by this description.... I can't tell Republicans from Democrats.

Both sides will lie to you, while trying to forward their own agendas. Don't trust a carreer politician.

[GenghisTron]

deductive reasoning tells me this is the core of why I hardly ever support democrat a.k.a. liberal policies. Americans are fat because they have learned to be lazy and selfish. Another democrat a.k.a. liberal policy.

That's not deductive, nor is it 'reason'.

[FrenchToast]

deductive reasoning tells me this is the core of why I hardly ever support democrat a.k.a. liberal policies. Americans are fat because they have learned to be lazy and selfish. Another democrat a.k.a. liberal policy.

You know that when you're agreeing with Bridget there's a fault in the chain of reasoning somewhere. And this... this is really poor logic.

[Bridget]

You're the one with a reasoning fault if you disagree with the fundamental fact of human nature that people will easily and recklessly spend other people's money, but will be overtly cautious with their own, even to the point of making sacrifices to ensure it. Maybe you should stop importing your logic from smug retardo Marxist canucks who sip wild rice smoothies when they're not ice-skating, and get around to real critical thinking?

[FrenchToast]

Touche

[stray kitten]

You know that when you're agreeing with Bridget there's a fault in the chain of reasoning somewhere. And this... this is really poor logic.

I agree; this could potentially be poor logic. Agreeing with Bridget that is. However there is a group of politically aligned persons within this country who believe that everyone is entitled to everything simply because they have the unconscious ability to breath air. Which frankly contributes a gross amount of excess carbon dioxide to an already stressed atmospheric balance. And this philosophy tends to be more liberal than conservative.