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View Full Version : For vicious- illegal jump pad?


Discipline
04-17-2008, 01:59 AM
Here you go buddy, you wanted me to take a screen shot for you.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c81/reign66/jumppad.jpg

On the cap? No, but annoying enough to make you miss the cap completely if you don't know it's there. Not that big of a deal though. For other people NO I am not complaining about it, he asked me ingame to take a screen shot for him.

Credge
04-17-2008, 02:10 AM
Yeah, could someone please clarify this as well as make a long list of examples that can be comparable to all other maps as well as having map specific examples?

Having to use judgment on rules like that is bad.

tml
04-17-2008, 02:36 AM
*COUGH*destroyable jump PADS *CougH* wow sorry got somethin in my throat

Skanky Butterpuss
04-17-2008, 02:48 AM
i bet its my wang

Vicious
04-17-2008, 02:58 AM
Thanks for posting it, I think it should be moved to clan section though. See my opinion (now seeing it) is that it can be walked around. I do know that the radius of use for that thing is retarded though and you can be 10 feet away and still get jumped.

Discipline
04-17-2008, 03:09 AM
Well it wasnt being put there the whole time.. sometimes right around the corner so if you dont know it's there and you walk around it.. you better have good strafe skills or you're screwed. actually had to save myself from flying off a handful of times
I actually placed that one down myself to show the general area of where it was being put.

and you're probably right, that would have been a better place to put this thread. sorry mods =P

Ender
04-17-2008, 03:25 AM
Not that it was a huge deal, but there were a couple of times where the jump pad was close enough to the cap point where I would cap the flag and upon doing so I would be bounced back into our flag room.

Another thing that should be clarified is the yard d rule in congestus. After playing it in a match situation, it became abundantly clear that there were differing interpretations of the rules. I don't know how it could be much clearer, as there was an accompanying picture, and again, it wasn't a huge issue tonight, but sometime soon someone is going to get really bent out of shape about it and it's going to be a cause for disputes/a lot of complaining.

Credge
04-17-2008, 03:29 AM
Not that it was a huge deal, but there were a couple of times where the jump pad was close enough to the cap point where I would cap the flag and upon doing so I would be bounced back into our flag room.

Another thing that should be clarified is the yard d rule in congestus. After playing it in a match situation, it became abundantly clear that there were differing interpretations of the rules. I don't know how it could be much clearer, as there was an accompanying picture, and again, it wasn't a huge issue tonight, but sometime soon someone is going to get really bent out of shape about it and it's going to be a cause for disputes/a lot of complaining.

Rgr.

8.8. EXCEPTION:
• Yard D is permitted when the flag has been moved into the yard.
• If the flag has been moved into a position visible from the yard you may defend the flag as if it were in the yard. Rule applies to exits with doors as if they were open. The flag is considered visible if any part of the flag can be seen.
• Dettable entities located in the yard may be defended until entity has been destroyed.

Ender
04-17-2008, 03:38 AM
The Yard D rules for congestus as per the ugc FF home page.
“Any defensive configuration in the yard may extend to the threshold of their battlements. In other words, just before their battlements begin.”

This means that IF the enemy takes the flag past the line defined above, on their side, you MUST abandon all Yard D configurations. This includes the enemy ladder.

http://www.ugcleague.com/files/maps/cong_yard_d.JPG

Discipline
04-17-2008, 03:39 AM
Rgr.

8.8. EXCEPTION:
• Yard D is permitted when the flag has been moved into the yard.
• If the flag has been moved into a position visible from the yard you may defend the flag as if it were in the yard. Rule applies to exits with doors as if they were open. The flag is considered visible if any part of the flag can be seen.
• Dettable entities located in the yard may be defended until entity has been destroyed.


http://www.ugcleague.com/files/maps/cong_yard_d.JPG

"This means that IF the enemy takes the flag past the line defined above, on their side, you MUST abandon all Yard D configurations. This includes the enemy ladder. "

back on topic- I feel as though if the jump pad hiders your ability to cap/resupply it should be illegal. it's generally not a big issue, but I wouldn't doubt it being a problem on some maps

Edit- double teamed! screw you ender I wanted to post it first!

Credge
04-17-2008, 04:09 AM
The Yard D rules for congestus as per the ugc FF home page.
“Any defensive configuration in the yard may extend to the threshold of their battlements. In other words, just before their battlements begin.”

This means that IF the enemy takes the flag past the line defined above, on their side, you MUST abandon all Yard D configurations. This includes the enemy ladder.

http://www.ugcleague.com/files/maps/cong_yard_d.JPG

That picture isn't clear anyway. It's a red line at the blue base. Does this mean the blue team can't pass this point? Does this mean the red team can go up to this point? It doesn't explain anything, and the further description doesn't tell you anything besides "don't shoot at the ladders".

It's also not in the UGC rule book and should be there if anyone is expected to follow them.

As I said, it needs to be clearly stated in the rules, with pictures and examples that are clearly marked and explained, not vaguely defined using a line in a picture that, again, doesn't really say anything.

Am I only allowed to go up to that point if I'm on red, or is that where blue is supposed to stop?

Even further, what is a D configuration? Does this mean that I can't pass that point on defense, or does it mean I can't fire at them if they pass that certain point, whichever that point was? Can I fire at the ladder while I'm on my battlements? What does it mean "This includes the enemy ladders"? Can I not go to their ladder? Fire at it? Etc.

None of this is explained and it's very vague.

Discipline
04-17-2008, 04:35 AM
That picture isn't clear anyway. It's a red line at the blue base. Does this mean the blue team can't pass this point? Does this mean the red team can go up to this point? It doesn't explain anything, and the further description doesn't tell you anything besides "don't shoot at the ladders".

It's also not in the UGC rule book and should be there if anyone is expected to follow them.

As I said, it needs to be clearly stated in the rules, with pictures and examples that are clearly marked and explained, not vaguely defined using a line in a picture that, again, doesn't really say anything.

Am I only allowed to go up to that point if I'm on red, or is that where blue is supposed to stop?

Even further, what is a D configuration? Does this mean that I can't pass that point on defense, or does it mean I can't fire at them if they pass that certain point, whichever that point was? Can I fire at the ladder while I'm on my battlements? What does it mean "This includes the enemy ladders"? Can I not go to their ladder? Fire at it? Etc.

None of this is explained and it's very vague.

I thought they explained it very clearly. In that picture say that is your base.. you can't pass/shoot anyone past that line UNLESS the flag is in the yard.. in which case you can chase UNTIL it hits the line on the other teams base. In other words, you cant follow them playing d in their base.. even if flag is there.
This is all off topic though! This thread is about the evil monkeys making jump pads in places that make the leprechauns upset.

Ender
04-17-2008, 06:34 AM
I agree that it is unclear, I read it a few times over to understand it. Better pictures that are more properly labeled would definitely help. Again, it didn't have much of an impact on us today, so it's sort of a non-issue.

That said, I feel that the intentions of this part were pretty clear: "This means that IF the enemy takes the flag past the line defined above, on their side, you MUST abandon all Yard D configurations. This includes the enemy ladder." There are a few obscurities, the line didn't clearly indicate which side it was on, however it definitely does talk about abandoning all yard d when the enemy reaches their ladder. That should provide a clue. If you're really claiming confusion about that or what a "Defensive configuration is" or whether you're allowed to defend the flag when you're clearly inside the enemy base, I would guess that you're just being obtuse.

Regarding it not being in the "official rules": The rules, as I'm sure you're well aware, are a work in progress. They are constantly being updated as they need to be. This week, that happened to include the yard d for congestus. When a small section, such as specific yard d, is updated it makes more sense for the UGC admins to put it in a more visible place (i.e., the FF home page) than it does for them to hide it in an obscure section of a document that most people don't even read. I'm sure that the appropriate section will get amended when the admins see it necessary, until then, that is probably the place most people will see it. Also, there is a whole topic on these forums that is devoted to UGC updates that said expressly to check the UGC site for specific yard D instructions.

Either way, it wasn't really an issue, so the whole thing is a moot point for now. I do agree that it should be clearer, but I don't think that it is impossibly obfuscated either.

Ginger Lord
04-17-2008, 10:49 AM
Won't matter when 2.1 comes around and you have to "+jump" on the pads to get them to work.

Vicious
04-17-2008, 01:34 PM
Well, it's not so much that it matters, the match is not under contention, it's just us trying to make things clearer for the near future and get more of a set definition to things. I feel bad for Satan, he does most of this on his own. So pictures bring great clarification to what we're discussing which is why they took a screenshot of it.

dys
04-17-2008, 01:37 PM
Looks like an extremely useful jump pad for the defenders.

Dr.Satan
04-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Wow...honestly I don't know how I could have made those rules more specific. I mean I took pictures, made arrows, outlined every possible thing I could think of, hell I even added this part just to make sure I didn't miss anything:

Any questions ASK!! I can not stress this enough, if your not sure the only way to find out is to ask me! You all know where to contact me, and if you don't, check the forum leaders board!

So yeah sorry if I didn't catch it all, but honestly I never received a single PM / message / email or phone call from any leader who had a question about the yard D rule so either you need to communicate with your team more or the rule really wasn't that confusing.

Now on topic and WRT the jump pad...there is also a rule up about that (has been since dropdown). I specifically have left it up because I know that dropdown isn't / wasn't the only map where this thing can potentially be a problem. However adding it to the rules just to remove it once 2.1 comes out and this problem is solved would be needless work on an already limited UGC staff so the post is where it's staying.

Man Cannon / Jump Pad


Second order of business that needs addressing is the Man Cannon (Jump Pad):

It has come to my attention that there is definitely some possible exploits with this item. So were going to address that now before any problems arise.

The use of the Man Cannon / Jump Pad to block, bar, or otherwise grief any player will be considered unsportsmanlike and is grounds for forfeiture. This includes, but is not limited to, placing it over entrances to keep an enemy team out of somewhere, placing it over a flag or capture point to stop the enemy from capping, or placing it in a door way and / or hall way to keep the enemy team from advancing. If it is found that your team is in violation of this corrective action will be taken. The action taken will be up to the UGC staff and can potentially include an overturn of the match.

So keep this in mind when building and let's all have a good clean game!

so yeah, again, not really sure how I can make that any clearer aside from mentioning it in every news post from here on out until the issue is resolved (2.1).

@ Credge - I agree that somethings should be added to the rules, but if we were to attempt to add every single scenario for every map in the league, the rules page would end up being so large that no one would ever look at it. That's why there is news...to address things that just need to be addressed that week and shout out to you all anything that needs to be said.

I strongly suggest all clan leaders encourage your members to check the main page at least once a day to ensure that nothing is missed...OR just subscribe to this thread (http://www.fortress-forever.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14546) as I do update that every time I make an announcement.

Sorry if this is a little harsh, but I'm just surprised by this...seriously I'm always around and try to be available as much as possible. If you need something ask...and I will generally answer within an hour or so. And if I don't answer...leave your question...don't just say "hey satan" and then nothing.

Say:

"hey satan..."
<few minutes go by>
"Oh guess your not here....well <insert question here>"

That way once I do get the message I can easily track you down and answer it for you.

And if you haven't already...add to me friends:

heengreen

Vicious
04-17-2008, 02:54 PM
The problem lies in what some people would consider hinderance.

dys
04-17-2008, 03:10 PM
That's exactly it, Vicious. Every single one of us can search and find an alternative view in interpreting a rule. The problem is; the more rules, the bigger the slippery slope. As Satan said, it's impossible to write out rules regarding every single map and possible scenario.

A lot of people need to buck up and stop counting on the rules to bail your asses out. And no, I am not directing that to anyone here, whether it be this thread or this entire forum. I'm just saying it in general terms.

In my 8+ years of leaguing I have seen it time and time again that as more rules get added, the more disputes there are and the more difficult ruling on them becomes. More teams become focused on finding what rule their opponent is breaking rather then trying to beat the other team to begin with.

I am not bashing any one person, any one team or any one league in saying this. I'm not saying a league shouldn't have rules nor am I saying how a league should govern themselves.

What I am saying is, it's a fucking war game. Aside from the obvious rules such as no cheating/ringing or whatever else common sense tells us is defined by the word 'obvious', less rules = more matches decided in the server instead of the court room. Less rules means more creativity. Less rules means a clearer distinction between the lowest level team out there and the top. In my opinion, (as is this entire post) many rules beyond the obviously needed ones seem to protect the lesser ranked teams from annihilation.

I'm sorry if that's overly-blunt or if I've derailed, and if I haven't yet then let me go ahead and do so now: If a team is getting their asses handed to them before they even make it into the other base (and yes i've been there) then your team isn't as good as the other and it's a mismatch to begin with. Either learn from it or complain about it, but don't go thumbing through the rulebook in efforts to gain something from some stupid technicality.

p.s.
Please don't chalk this up as some elitest attitude that should just be dismissed, as much as it may sound. I've been on the receiving end of many-an-ass-whoopings and since my team hasn't played in a league for FF yet, we may very well be that lower-ranked team that gets fisted in our matches.

Dr.Satan
04-17-2008, 03:21 PM
that is true, but that's why there is a dispute team...if you feel they didn't adhere to the rule, submit a dispute and we will review it.

Discipline
04-17-2008, 03:56 PM
@ dys, just making sure nothing is being directed towards me, nor any of sYn. We both said it was not a big deal, vicious just wanted me to take a screen shot to see for future information if it as illegal I guess. I know you said it's not being directed to anyone, but some people like to be sneaky lol. As someone else said, this issue wont even be a problem anymore once they make it so you have to jump before it sends you flying.. or making them destructible =P

don't worry satan, I thought the yard d rules were actually very clear so your efforts did not go in vain =P

dys
04-17-2008, 04:01 PM
Absolutely not directed to anyone in particular. :) I know I kinda babbled there, I guess it was just one of my moments. I just had to get it off my chest! but again, really not meant to be directed to anyone or any clan or league.

BlisTer
04-17-2008, 04:21 PM
not related to congestus but another nasty place for a jumppad is ontop of the water in the plasma fr... D cant get into their resup.

Dr.Satan
04-17-2008, 05:44 PM
Ok so an update here b/c I didn't really notice that there was a question on this:

In this situation it would really have to be reviewed. If they are placing it there just to mess with the team then yes, that would be illegal b/c it's griefing, but if they were honestly just using it to get across and it happened to block the cap no.

On cong it's tough b/c it could be either, if we watched the demo and they are just putting it there and then running bottom or the other side the whole time...then it's definitely a grief move, but if they were putting it there and using it consistently then it would probably not be ruled as greifing.

Ultimately though that would have to be decided through a dispute. Because that's the easiest way to review things as the whole UGC Dispute team gets involved and looks at it. If ever you feel there is something fishy then dispute it...even if you don't think that it will overturn the match and you just want that clan to learn a lesson, sometimes things warrant suspensions and what not that can't be handed out unless it's brought to our attn. Just be clear when submitting the dispute and be sure to follow the dispute guidelines. (http://ugcleague.com/rules_ff5.cfm#10)

As a general rule of thumb though:

Try to avoid building in or around; tight corridors and corners, caps, and flags whenever possible.

FYI: this was brought to my attention via pm...thank you for asking me!