Normal games in Fortress Forever on server browser

[Bridget]

Sick of pickups? Want an actual challenge instead of playing by a strict standard that only allows weak classes that die in two hits on offense? Got your priorities in order instead of considering your skills in a video game a form of real life merit? Sweet - come play some public games on one of the many available public servers.

Unsure how to do this?

1. First download and install Fortress Forever. I prefer 2.41!
2. Restart steam, open the games tab, then start the game.
3. Open up the server browser and search for a game!
4. Double click the server title to join.

Good luck and thanks for not contributing to the cancer that is killing FF!

[Eon Seig]

Excuse me while I go wait for Xonotic.

Last week [ot] was the cancer that's killing FF. Are we now in the "drawing straws" period?

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by Bridget

1. First download and install Fortress Forever. I prefer 2.41!

[Bridget]

I never said this was going to be an easy task, Raynian.

[squeek.]

You never answered my question in that other thread.

A challenge to do what?

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek.

You never answered my question in that other thread.

A challenge to do what?

Do you mean this one?

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...22276&p=478458

If yes, I can answer that. He was saying in that thread it's tough to stop people from CAPPING compared to pickups because in pubs you routinely deal with offense that has far more attack power. For example, in pickups, having 5 soldiers on offense come at you while only one teammate is helping you to defend typically isn't something you have to worry about.

I honestly thought you were just making a smartass comment there, I didn't realize you actually weren't following what he was saying.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Squeek

Tough to do what, exactly?

That question? It's a challenge keeping your gun up in a pub due to no restrictions on which classes are allowed on offense, the number of players, how practical an option is, and so on. It was in response to Chef, who concluded that because the gun did well in pickups, he saw no problem with it.

I am sure you can go suicide-demo in a pickup or something, but it isn't practical if more than one person does it or if one person does it for too long. Teams have to focus on running the flag. That demand will always keep them from going out of their way to take the gun down, so there's less challenge for the Engineer there than one in a pub.

The pub Engineer has to deal with suicide-demos and Snipers and the like; numerous amounts of them consistently. That's because score is arbitrary in the pub. There's no downside for players going out of their way to kill the gun. The result is that the weak gun, made weak to compensate for low numbers and more objective-oriented gameplay in pickups, is shit in public play.

I could easily say "Well, just balance it for the pub! Fuck the pickup players!" as I have in the past, but that's a bit dishonest. It's wrong of me to vilify the pickup players simply because the gun has been balanced in their favor over the public player. It's impossible to come to a compromise that will please both crowds. The only solution I see is branching FF into public and competitive modes where the games and their aspects can work differently, whether this is done via server configurations within the same game or the separation of FF into two different games.

[squeek.]

Forget it, sorry. I can't seem to articulate my point.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Bridget

It's impossible to come to a compromise that will please both crowds.

See I find this statment a bit baffling, since in my eyes that's EXACTLY what TFC did. All I can figure is that the pickup crowd is unwilling to go back to old TFC-ish values or else something in FF is radically different that they don't work anymore (though I still haven't seen anyone point to SPECIFICS of this). Like what was so bad with 1.11 values that they broke pickup play?

[Crazycarl]

ITT Bridget speaks truths. I followed his four step process and fun was the result.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Like what was so bad with 1.11 values that they broke pickup play?

This is a good point, actually. 1.11 wasn't that bad for pickups, except for skimming.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek.

This is a good point, actually. 1.11 wasn't that bad for pickups, except for skimming.

1.11 wasn't that bad for AvD! Tracking on the sg could have maybe been a little better, but that's the sort of thing that could be inched forward until the pickup crowd thought it was too high. As for skim cap, that was never a big deal in AvD either way.

[Lynus]

Each team has the same exact SG/HWGuy/etc to deal with when playing the game.. either on CTF/AVD/or ID. One team runs offense, the other runs defense...... half-time.... switch.

Seems fair to me...


BTW Bridget - thanks for derailing my attempt to get people more involved with competitive gameplay.

Such a newb.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Lynus

Each team has the same exact SG/HWGuy/etc to deal with when playing the game.. either on CTF/AVD/or ID. One team runs offense, the other runs defense...... half-time.... switch.
Seems fair to me...

Nah, not as simple as that.

Let's take a look at Exchange, very small hallways, which leads to the D making the O rage hardcore, aka a low scoring map.

Now let's look at Congestus, very open map, very O Friendly, high capping map.

Different Gameplays just in two CTF Maps.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Lynus

Each team has the same exact SG/HWGuy/etc to deal with when playing the game.. either on CTF/AVD/or ID. One team runs offense, the other runs defense...... half-time.... switch.

Seems fair to me...

Spoken like someone who doesn't really play the other gamemodes that much. You're driving me crazy. Here, I'll try and keep this short:

1. Pub AvD does NOT switch sides. One team caps and the game is over. It doesn't reset, the map changes to something else. The fact that you didn't know this alone I think indicates how much you play it.

2. True, the stats don't change between gamemodes, but the rules and tactics do. When is the last time you saw 7 soldiers playing on O in a pickup game? I've seen this several times before in pub I/D and AvD. There's not much of a defense for it. People simply play stronger classes for O in pubs than they do in pickups. Old sentries and heavies had a better chance of slowing this down. Current ones do not.

3. I/D does switch sides, however if it used to take an average of 10+ minutes to be done with a round, and it routinely becomes 2-5 average (that's INCLUDING wait time for the flag to respawn after capping), it kind of sucks and just feels like taking your turn to win or lose, depending on whether you're on O or D. Is it fair? Technically yes, both teams switch sides. Is it fun? Not really. I find it infinitely more fun not KNOWING which team will win.

[Lynus]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Spoken like someone who doesn't really play the other gamemodes that much. You're driving me crazy. Here, I'll try and keep this short:

im driving you crazy because i truly feel im right and you're wrong, and actually I play all the game modes... the reason i think they(pubs) arent fun(for me and you) is because people don't go for the objective.... they run around cloaked or find a nice far away spot to snipe people - both not contributing to capturing the flag/ point / area(aka winning the game)

1. Pub AvD does NOT switch sides. One team caps and the game is over. It doesn't reset, the map changes to something else. The fact that you didn't know this alone I think indicates how much you play it.

that sounds like a problem with the game... not the engineer.... not the sentry gun... not the heavyweapons guy...
And for the record I've known this and always thought it to be a problem... and I believe I've requested this to be fixed.

2. True, the stats don't change between classes, but the rules and tactics do. When is the last time you saw 7 soldiers playing on Offense in a pickup game? I've seen this several times before in pub I/D and AvD. There's not much of a defense for it. People simply play stronger classes for O in pubs than they do in pickups. Old sentries and heavies had a better chance of slowing this down. Current ones do not.

Im fairly certain 8 soldiers could be stopped in many different fashions.... but honestly ive never seen this before. One strat would be to run 6 heavyweapons guys, 1 demoman, 1 engineer. My strategy would be 1 yard sniper, 4 soldiers, 1 engy (with a strategically placed sentry gun), 1 heavy, 1 demoman.

You're problem is wanting to focus too much on relying on sentry guns... They should be the last resort of defense when all else has failed... should not be there to prevent them from getting in your flagroom.

3. I/D do switch sides, however if it used to take an average of 10 minutes to be done with a round, and it routinely becomes 2-5 average (that's INCLUDING wait time for the flag to respawn after capping), it kind of sucks and just feels like taking your turn to win or lose, depending on whether you're on offense or defense. Is it fair? Technially yes, both teams switch sides. Is it fun? Not really. I find it infinitely more fun not knowing which team will win.

This could again be a map problem... but I really honestly think this has to do with people not contributing toward the objective and working as a team. A good mixed set of defensive classes, good communication, and ultimately fps skill is what determines a win or a loss... not a stupid fuckin sentry gun.

the bottom line is you can't blame getting raped as an engineer or a heavyweapons guy on the class. it's the fact that people dont follow the objectives in the game mode.

[chilledsanity]

Short version:

You keep saying things over and over like you don't understand what's being discussed. It's like if I was trying to identify a type of fish and you keep asking what color its feathers are. I don't think there's any point in discussing it with you further if you keep this up, you haven't shown any evidence that you UNDERSTAND the problem. Feel free to prove me wrong however, I've tried to point out the specifics of what you're saying below:


Long version:

Originally Posted by Lynus

im driving you crazy because i truly feel im right and you're wrong

No, it's because you've made multiple statements that suggest to me that you are truly ignorant of the situation and/or are misunderstanding it. Not because of your difference of opinion. If you made arguments that actually showed an understanding of the problem, I wouldn't be all over you:

"in pickup games the engineer gets most of the kills so i really dont see what the fucking problem is.... "

"either on CTF/AVD/or ID. One team runs offense, the other runs defense...... half-time.... switch."

I can totally accept if someone has a valid argument about something and provide points to back it up. I tend to find it frustrating when people make blanket statements about something where it's obvious they're not fully understanding the problem to begin with.

Originally Posted by Lynus

the reason i think they(pubs) arent fun(for me and you) is because people don't go for the objective.... they run around cloaked or find a nice far away spot to snipe people - both not contributing to capturing the flag/ point / area(aka winning the game)

What you're describing does happen quite frequently in pub CTF however, I agree on that point. I'm not sure I've ever seen that happen in I/D or AvD. Those are both very objective oriented, it almost always clicks with people doing what they're supposed. Even random DM'ing by players provides a front line that benefits the team as a whole in those gamemodes. If you think people are simply hiding and not doing objectives, this makes me think you don't play much I/D or AvD at all and seem to be misunderstanding the situation.

Originally Posted by Lynus

that sounds like a problem with the game... not the engineer.... not the sentry gun... not the heavyweapons guy...

The whole point is that it never WAS a problem until O got new boosts and the sg and the hwguy was nerfed.

Originally Posted by Lynus

And for the record I've known this and always thought it to be a problem... and I believe I've requested this to be fixed.

My apologies. I was going by your previous statement which said that teams switch in AvD. I assumed when you said that, you thought teams switched in AvD, not that what you REALLY meant was the exact opposite of what you said.

Originally Posted by Lynus

Im fairly certain 8 soldiers could be stopped in many different fashions.... but honestly ive never seen this before. One strat would be to run 6 heavyweapons guys, 1 demoman, 1 engineer. My strategy would be 1 yard sniper, 4 soldiers, 1 engy (with a strategically placed sentry gun), 1 heavy, 1 demoman.

I think you haven't seen this before because you don't play a lot of AvD or I/D games. Your strategy also calls for a yard sniper. I/D and AvD games typically don't have defined yards.

Originally Posted by Lynus

You're problem is wanting to focus too much on relying on sentry guns... They should be the last resort of defense when all else has failed... should not be there to prevent them from getting in your flagroom.

Not at all, I simply want a balanced game, and nerfing the sentry guns has been one of the biggest things to disrupt that. Also most AvD and I/D games don't have a flagroom.

Originally Posted by Lynus

This could again be a map problem... but I really honestly think this has to do with people not contributing toward the objective and working as a team. A good mixed set of defensive classes, good communication, and ultimately fps skill is what determines a win or a loss... not a stupid fuckin sentry gun.

I think both are relevant. But imagine this as a hypothetical situation: what if you took away bunny hopping, jump pads, and conc jumping. Do you think pickups would still be balanced?

Originally Posted by Lynus

the bottom line is you can't blame getting raped as an engineer or a heavyweapons guy on the class. it's the fact that people dont follow the objectives in the game mode.

As a team, people almost always accomplish objectives in pub I/D and AvD. If people weren't accomplishing objectives, then this whole argument wouldn't exist because nobody would be capping, so defense would have nothing to worry about! In other words, what you're describing almost never happens in AvD.

[Lynus]

So what exactly do you propose be changed?

Higher damage output?
Higher Health?
What?

Going to sleep.

Goodnight.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Lynus

So what exactly do you propose be changed?

Higher damage output?
Higher Health?
What?

Originally Posted by Lynus

no offense chilledsanity caz i like you - but im pretty sure everyone heard you the first time... no need to keep beating up this dead horse that you call a broken sg.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Lynus

So what exactly do you propose be changed?

Higher damage output?
Higher Health?
What?

Going to sleep.

Goodnight.

It's not just the SG, it's also Pyro with it's uber-flame push, and jump pads.