Ahead of His Time

[halo]

So you said two year olds but weren't talking about them and I'm evil because I thought you were talking about what your words actually meant.

I don't know how it works elsewhere but children as deficient as your extreme example are dealt with by specialists over here and go to schools with others like them, or are home-tutored. Sitting in normal lessons would be of no real benefit to them in any case. The scenario you are talking about would not happen to the subject you are talking about where I come from.

Now there are two examples where ridicule of disability can be a serious problem. The first is in cases of serious physical handicap, that can be quite crushing I imagine. However it takes a grade 1 arsehole to do this and usually leads to the marginalisation of the arsehole, from my experience, because it's so obviously morally unacceptable. Even to most children.

The second case is that of less severe mental handicap and this is one a bit closer to home for me. Asperger's Syndrome is a good example because most kids with it will still attend school as normal, and rightly so because Asperger's sufferers can be very intelligent. However they don't understand people at all and don't communicate with them at a non-verbal level or empathise. That makes ridicule tricky to handle, it makes life in general tricky to handle. However the fact is, they don't have a choice. Even if you could spare them from the hard-time every one gets at one point or another at school, it just renders them unready for any kind of life outside of school. Everyone has to find a way to cope with dickheads because it's part of becomming a well-adjusted human-being.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by halo

I don't know how it works elsewhere but children as deficient as your extreme example are dealt with by specialists over here and go to schools with others like them, or are home-tutored. Sitting in normal lessons would be of no real benefit to them in any case. The scenario you are talking about would not happen to the subject you are talking about where I come from.

Special Education student's aren't often segregated by building here, usually only by classroom.

Originally Posted by halo

The second case is that of less severe mental handicap and this is one a bit closer to home for me. Asperger's Syndrome is a good example because most kids with it will still attend school as normal, and rightly so because Asperger's sufferers can be very intelligent. However they don't understand people at all and don't communicate with them at a non-verbal level or empathise. That makes ridicule tricky to handle, it makes life in general tricky to handle. However the fact is, they don't have a choice. Even if you could spare them from the hard-time every one gets at one point or another at school, it just renders them unready for any kind of life outside of school. Everyone has to find a way to cope with dickheads because it's part of becomming a well-adjusted human-being.

Again, you're assuming that all children can adjust and learn to cope, and that is not necessarily the case. Not everyone can find a way to cope with dickheads.

I think maybe you're view on this is overshadowed a bit by the fact that your mentally challenged are segregated. The example the kid in the video explains is a mentally challenged girl in a the hallway of a school with normal children, which happens every day here, with children of all degrees of mental retardation. They share the same building. These are the situations he was addressing.

[BinaryLife]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

And you're basing your idea that all mentally handicap kids can learn adaquately based on one girl who was very high functioning. There is a huge difference between someone that has brain damage and one who's mindhas been completely formed differently due to a disease like Down Syndrome or Autism. There are MANY children who can not learn those lessons, who do not have the ability to connect those dots and learn from that experience, no matter how long that time is. There are extremely varing degrees of mentally handicapped you can not group them together like that.

And you're basing this on what? I sited that as as orce for school related hazing. I typically don't site other people's relationships for personal knowledge. but as far as exposure goes, my mother is a teacher for the special needs children at her school. She deals with childrens beween the ages of 5 and 9. They have all sorts of problems. All are mentally handicapped but most for different reasons. You can't lump every one into one catergory and say most of them, or all of them can't understand. That's almost as discriminatory as insulting them. You treat them as people, since that's what they are. Different people react different ways. And for the record, even very young children are tought and learn the "sticks and stones" song.

They are not unable to learn. Having trouble, or learning more slowly does not make them so thin skinned. There are no simple catergories. The friend I am speaking of has the same level IQ as most of the children in moms class. The differences are that she's older, wiser, and doesn't have any other problems other than her IQ. The other children have problems accompanying their mental retardation. Some of them even have high IQ's, but can not learn due to other circumstances. My point here, is only that you can't categorize these people and say they're all weak, or all a race, or all discriminated against.


I can't finsih my point at the moment, I'm at work. I'll be around.

[BinaryLife]

double post.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

They are not unable to learn. Having trouble, or learning more slowly does not make them so thin skinned.

I did not say that all mentally retarted children are unable to learn, I said some can not learn some interpersonal communication reasoning. Your assertion that their minds are developed enough to learn everything a normal person can is just plain wrong.

Can you teach an autistic child to feel love? Can you teach a child with moderate retardation due to trisomy 21 perform quantium physics calculations? No, you can't. There are some things that some children with mental retardation are not going to be able to comprehend. My point is, in many instances, they are completely defenseless in that respect. Some children may not be able to comprehend that when people attack them verbablly that they have not done something wrong. The idea that we should expect them to "suck it up and get over it" is completely wrong.

Scuzzy

[BinaryLife]

Did You just relate emotion to quantum physics? I couldn't be taught quantum physics, that doesn't mean anything. Emotions are compeltely different from being taught equations. Emotions are primal and natural. Every human being feels them, over time it's only natural that they would grow to understand them like anyone else.

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

I did not say that all mentally retarted children are unable to learn, I said some can not learn some interpersonal communication reasoning. Your assertion that their minds are developed enough to learn everything a normal person can is just plain wrong.

Can you teach an autistic child to feel love? Can you teach a child with moderate retardation due to trisomy 21 perform quantium physics calculations? No, you can't. There are some things that some children with mental retardation are not going to be able to comprehend. My point is, in many instances, they are completely defenseless in that respect. Some children may not be able to comprehend that when people attack them verbablly that they have not done something wrong. The idea that we should expect them to "suck it up and get over it" is completely wrong.

Scuzzy

[halo]

Can you teach an autistic child to feel love?

It's not nearly as simple as 'autistic kids can't feel emotion'. Even if you qualify it some more it doesn't work like that. Autistic kids have great difficulty in presenting correct emotional responses or empathising with the feelings of others (reading emotions.) However you can bring an autistic child up in a loving family and he will turn out happier and more fulfilled than one who merely had all his practical needs met. They aren't without emotion, not by any means. It's much more complicated than that.

I've got a lot of mental illness in the family (three diagnosed conditions in me too :/.) My nephew is autistic and he certainly struggles socially but when things are getting on top of him he likes nothing more than to sit on his mum's knee and just hug her. You can't tell me that he's not getting some feelings of love and security out of that otherwise why would he do it and why would he be so much more at ease when he does?

Mental illness is not simple at all and it's rarely, if ever, absolute in any aspect. You're trying to tell people about it but I just can't see that you have a strong understanding of it yourself.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

Did You just relate emotion to quantum physics? I couldn't be taught quantum physics, that doesn't mean anything. Emotions are compeltely different from being taught equations. Emotions are primal and natural. Every human being feels them, over time it's only natural that they would grow to understand them like anyone else.

The mind of a four year old can not comprehend certain logic and reasoning. Many mentally retarded children have a mental makeup that makes them perpetually four, or eight years old. No matter how old they get they will not be able to comprehend certain things because of how their brains work. That's what mental retardation is, it's not that they are completely normal people and that they are just slow learners. And no, I did not relate emotions to quantum physics, they were in two separate sentences describing two separate situations.

Scuzzy

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by halo

It's much more complicated than that.

Which is my point.

Originally Posted by halo

I've got a lot of mental illness in the family (three diagnosed conditions in me too :/.) My nephew is autistic and he certainly struggles socially but when things are getting on top of him he likes nothing more than to sit on his mum's knee and just hug her. You can't tell me that he's not getting some feelings of love and security out of that otherwise why would he do it and why would he be so much more at ease when he does?

You've misunderstood the meaning behind that sentence Halo. My point was that there are some things that can not be learned through experience by some mentally challenged people. Binary is trying to say that with time they'll be able to learn. An autistic child (in many respects) can not be taught to "just ignore someone calling you names" and comprehend that they did nothing wrong; Social reasoning in cases like that can often be to far of a leap in logic for them. That was my point, not to get into semantic arguments about emotions in autistic children.

Originally Posted by halo

Mental illness is not simple at all and it's rarely, if ever, absolute in any aspect. You're trying to tell people about it but I just can't see that you have a strong understanding of it yourself.

I see children with many different and multiple disabilities every week. I speak with their teachers, their doctors, their parents and siblings. I completely agree that mental retardation is not a simple subject at all, which is why I'm arguing that you can not expect them to just "get over it." That is a blanket resolution to a far more complicated issue and I still state it is completely unrealistic. If you believe that all mentally retarded individuals CAN "just get over it" and can be taught to completely comprehend the complexities of the human psyche and why people are mean then feel free to continue this debate. Otherwise there really isn't much more to say on the subject.

[halo]

You're speaking about it in black and white terms though which is not appropriate, or accurate. It's just convenient for your point of view.

[BinaryLife]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

The mind of a four year old can not comprehend certain logic and reasoning. Many mentally retarded children have a mental makeup that makes them perpetually four, or eight years old. No matter how old they get they will not be able to comprehend certain things because of how their brains work. That's what mental retardation is, it's not that they are completely normal people and that they are just slow learners. And no, I did not relate emotions to quantum physics, they were in two separate sentences describing two separate situations.

Scuzzy

I think this is where we differ. I don't understand that to be the case. The way I understand it, their intelligence or their general knowledge doesn't grow much past that of a 4 year old. But that staementis a mere analogy. Their emotional maturity, isn't impacted in the same way. Emotions not being scientifically tied to IQ or dissability. They may not know their multiplication tabels, but they understand if someone they love dies then they wont be around anymore, and that it's sad.

The way you phrased the two was awkward. I didn't understand.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by halo

You're speaking about it in black and white terms though which is not appropriate, or accurate. It's just convenient for your point of view.

If you honestly believe that to be true then you personally need to "get over it."

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

I think this is where we differ. I don't understand that to be the case. The way I understand it, their intelligence or their general knowledge doesn't grow much past that of a 4 year old. But that staementis a mere analogy. Their emotional maturity, isn't impacted in the same way. Emotions not being scientifically tied to IQ or dissability. They may not know their multiplication tabels, but they understand if someone they love dies then they wont be around anymore, and that it's sad.

The way you phrased the two was awkward. I didn't understand.

I think we do differ, and that's fine. I disagree that emotional maturity continues to grow in all cases. In some it does not, and I have seen that many times. For instance, I know a 25 year old man who was(is) raised in a great home with siblings and he still has temper tantrums and throws things when he gets upset. It isn't that his parents didn't raise him right, it isn't that he's a bad kid, he is just are unable to learn to cope beyond what would be associative behavior of a small child. The real problem the parents have is he's large enough now to throw furniture.

Scuzzy