where i see this game going...

[WiFiDi]

while playing this game thinking how awesome it is i realize that this game will eventually die. as a great game that it is id like to see this game thrive and become full again as it deserves to be. ive played the game and it brings the old-school gaming into a new era its awesome! (given that i didn't get a chance to play doom, quake, or even original half life games.) bunny hoping ive always loved that. sure in its last stand (it was a way to avoid snipers) but b4 that it was essential to the game. love this game as much as i love tf2 its great game (yea i call it a game because it could be a standalone with all its content hell id actually pay for a game like this given that its much more touched up but still.)


lets get to the point
enough of that now to the actual point of why im writing this really long essay like post. now i like this game as a whole but sometimes i feel that this game is to complicated in some areas and not complicated enough in others. or it has technical issues i feel hold this game back.

1.) Identity
what is this game a copy of tfc or is it its own game. the argument is irrelevant here is the basic facts. not trying to be rude but heres the blunt truth. that just because a few tf2 holdouts don't wanna move on to what tf2 is doesn't mean that you should just make it just like tfc. if you want that go play tfc, really people still play that game. while this game was based off of tfc it doesn't mean that it just mimics tfc how far will that get you (let me think no where.) why because the only people that will stick around are tf2 holdouts. while everyone else will go play tf2 and move on and pretty soon it will really die.

now it should keep some of its tfc origin and charm it should start evolving into its own game made by the developers. yea i never said it should completely stray away from tfc but don't strive to make it just like tfc. make it your very own work of art make it have elements from tfc and other older games sure since that is still the goal however don't hesitate to add things in that don't reflect tfc in fact every time you think it doesn't sound like tfc enough give your self a good spanking. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0105125AAtee9e

as disturbing as that was you can just hit your head against a wall it will suffice. anyways back to the point how did all these games get developed well it started with hard work (you guys got that part down just perfectly. bu you can always work harder.) they also had direction this is how you get work done everyone has to be on the same page. your mappers you the developers, the advertisement division everyone. then the community will jump on the band wagon. Ive heard on the forums that the problem with making changes is that the maps need changes to accommodate what you do in the game. well guess what you the developers are making the game they need everyone to be working with them seeing the same vision they're seeing. its not the mappers that are in charge but the game developers. you guys need to realize this.

while this is harder said than done you need to develop a standard for maps i feel using a slightly more futuristic type maps instead of ammo bags energy columns that heal you and give you ammo kinda like a dispenser. i also like how some of the ctf maps kinda have a halo feel (what im more describing is that it needs to feel futuristic but still ancient.) i like that but there needs to be standard for your maps instead of a bunch of different ideas and all types of maps and textures the reason tf2 is successful because it has standards, halo is successful is because all the maps have the same stuff in them used in different ways. you believe all of them in the same universe that's what needs to happen. this may take time but it needs to happen for you to prosper.

you have to figure out how to market this game, make more awesome you-tube videos that show the game for the awesome old school game that it is. also the name is great love the name you have to keep it but you also have to figure out a way to get it to the masses otherwise well the game just sits under the radar. try hooking up with steam so you can download it off of steam. instead of just the site. if that's possible? love me some auto updates.

this is a very hard marketing system i get that but something has to get this game out there. facebook, youtube, etc... hell even advertisements.

2.) weapon redundancy, class role clarity
well this is one of those problems that keeps me from thinking of this a pc title. ok so lets see here you got everyone with a super shotgun just about. also just about every every class has a super shotgun and every class has a regular shotgun. (do we really need that really i mean we have a million ammo you never gonna run out.) you need to streamline the system so that only classes without this super shotgun has a regular shotgun.

also does a sniper really need a nail gun is that something you just tacked on i mean really it just feels cheap to me. what really i cant understand is why the spy has a shotgun, really why a shotgun that just hurts spy suppose to be stealthy sure its functional but it doesn't feel like a spy how about a silenced uzi like weapon then it at-least feels like a spy or even a silenced shotgun. some classes should have a shotgun (soldier) but not everyone you need more weapons other types of weapons variation make each class unique and different. like what tf2 did the only thing i don't like was that over half the classes had a shotgun but they fixed that.

now the little things like what to do about the pyro i say give him an awesome compression blast this blast can reflect all projectiles like in tf2 why because it'd be awesome and it really make the pyro useful in a skill based game like this pyro could be devastating. tf2 its not a huge advantage because of lack of speed in the game made it good but not as useful. it cant reflect sniper shots (and other laser weaponry.) itd make the pyro stand a chance and actually i think its be used in competitive because of the air-blast that now makes the pyro a force to be reckoned with. im not saying look to tf2 for all your answers but its successful and air-blast would improve the pyro so much. also the pyro secondary weapon looks really unnatural just weird to look at.

while this might be a little nit-picky why does everyone why does everyone have a crowbar why not something else why not a frying pan here and a crowbar there or maybe even a skull. have fun with it.

now why is there armor armor makes the game more complicated and raises the learning curve all when its not really necessary. just use hp im sure your working on that.

also whats with the fact that everyone has every type of ammo to start i really hate this its makes life more complicated and annoying just make em carry round the ammo they need. have ammo bags for everything else.

also one thing those ammo packs really are annoying how about a energy beam or something something standard but doest look strange if you really wanna go old school if its grenades make a giant floating grenade if bullets make it giant floating bullets. etc... i think that would add to the game tats just me.

3.) sentries
ok so now were finally here to a problem your currently working hard to solve sentries. i personally think your busy thinking inside the box on a problem that could be much easier solved outside the box why you ask i believe the engineer needs a bit of a rework. why because so far you seem to be getting no where now. instead of making this whole game more like tfc you could develop your own engineer to fit this game sure he could have a wrench (make a wrench that looks like your logo that be bad-ass.) the engineer plays a different role than he does in tfc or tf2.

so maybe just maybe, (i know this could be to good of an idea.) instead of saying that he has to be like this because he was like that in tfc (this game aint tfc.) so make him the fortress forever engineer sure he'll still build those sentry's but it could be different than in tfc his style of play metal could not even be a factor you could rework. or those weird orb things. lvls 1,2,3 could be a completely different from how strong they are but rather how they function, like 1 could be an offensive, level 2 could be balanced and 3 could be pure defense. and maybe you don't upgrade them but pick which type of sentry you want to build. like this,

a.)lvl 1 sentry model. a sentry designed for offense fast build and requires
little to no maintenance. however doesn't do that much damage has no knock back can run out of ammo. (the stats of the gunz them selves can be revised only if the build times and concepts remain the same.) while having a week gun it has more hp than a lvl 2.

b.) looks like lvl 2 sentry. a sentry that requires a reasonable amount of maintenance builds slower than the offensive sentry. and has more damage and knock back than the previous. can run out of ammo. and has more hp than a lvl 3. no shield.

c.) lvl 3 sentry model. this sentry is a power house of a sentry it has rockets but requires a lot of maintenance. has lots of knock-back does not quite as much as lvl 2 sentry. runs out of ammo fast and has less hp. but a small shield to protect some from explosives.

that's just an idea either way the sentry needs fixing quite possibly the whole engineer class. don't tell me that its to much work to do this, don't short your game from the potential that it has i wanna see some heart. do what it takes to make the game better even if it takes a year to implement this. find the best solution. whether its easy or hard and alot of work.

4.) nit pickin this might just be nit picky but i feel that some polishing is in order to. now tell me why is it that all time bombs (or pipe if play tf2) all blue no mater what team your on. what about sniper red dot sight that's also always red i feel that should be team colored. why are the soldiers rocket tips always red. what about he flames from teh rocket why aren't blue times blue. i feel that this would be a great addition to fix some of this now this may come much later down the line i thinks its something you should consider on your list. at least fix the pipes that be something nice.

changes i would make
changes that i would make is some stuff that i feel is outa whack but probably everybody else.

the medics poison ability i feel is not something a medic needs or at least have a way to cure it better. id really like to see the spy with the poison ability even more i feel its fits the espionage theme better.

concussion grenades well i hates these things why because there effect is OP plain and simple for a fast paced game losing the ability ot aim is just to powerful and pretty much leaves you dead, my suggestions are simple make it have impact damage to enemy's. or push you back and take fall damage no matter what. something like that. like the pushing back don't like the stun i feel its not necessary.

another thing i find annoying is that there is to much ammo but really kinda like never having to look for any also on a/d maps there should be re-spawn timer. and insta spawn just because people want isn't always better.

conclusion

now as i was saying you've done a great job making a wonderful mod and almost a great game in it self sadly not standalone but none the less a great game. id love to see what you do next even if its not on this page. i will come back and edit this in case it doesn't make sense.

now how do i play this game if i can complain this much i love it its just what i think would help make it better.

[Bridget]

Fortress Forever should make its own path instead of following in the path of a now dead game that was bettered by a still popular game that would hand (or has handed) FF the same fate. A lot of your points have to do with reducing redundancies and simplifying the game. That's great, but people always bitch and moan when others suggestion that because they see it as 'watering the game down'. They'll keep whatever complexities around to stay on top.

Here's what I have to say to your points + some of my own suggestions

• Weapon Loadout: The current loadouts are scattered and unorganized. You give people more weapons then they can possibly manage, and this leads to confusion for new players as to which weapons to use for what situations and why. I think the game needs just three slots: Primary, Secondary, and Melee
• Weapon Varition: Team Fortress 2 had the resources to do this. The melee weapons all pretty much behave the same way too. (At-least, the vanilla ones, and with the exception of the bat) Unless we're talking huge differences from one another, it's a waste of time and effort.
• Ammunition: It's pretty much redundant now because you never run out. Why have all the ammunition management in place when you rarely manage? That's why I think the game just needs infinite ammunition reserves or some way to regenerate ammunition over time when you run out (to encourage you to save ammunition and to prevent spam).
• Simplification: Beside the weapon loadouts and ammunition, this game could use some simplification in other areas too. You know armor? It's pretty much redundant. The dev team should just convert that over and add it to each class' health. Therefore, you'll then have a clear idea of how much damage is needed to kill you or how much damage you can take. Armor is just a redundant mechanic pretending to be 'sophisticated'. Also, team colored rockets and pipes and grenade trails and sniper dots would do a lot to make this game more user-friendly.
• Compression Blast: This would seem useful, but I don't know if it would work so well given the pace of the game. It also kinda violates one of the design principles in which you shouldn't be able to harm your team mates through your own actions or mistakes. There's nothing more annoying in TF2 then having your team mate (who sucks at timing air blasts) spam his rockets out and get you killed by a critical reflected rocket. Pyro is a viable choice now in competitive play. People just get butthurt because they don't like a challenge and would rather you play an weaker class like Scout or Medic so they can two-hit you and delude themselves of their 'skill'. Hur hur!
• Infection: Infection in its current implementation is nothing more than a novelty. It rewards the Medic for effort he doesn't put in and irritates the living fuck out of the person being infected. Oh well! Gotta keep that mechanic around because it was in TFC.
• Concussion Effect: Yeah, it is a pretty stupid mechanic. You figure the speed-boost would be enough of a bonus to the classes using them, but no, we have to cripple the defender by throwing his aim all over the place. Even if the concer fails to make his jump, he can usually just walk right past the defender due to the safety net the dizzy effect causes. I like your idea of forcefully throwing people back with no dizzy effect and dealing them damage if they hit a wall or something. That would be intimidating to someone in a chokepoint.
• Sentry: I don't think the solution is making the sentry gun more complicated. Sometimes, giving choices like that can have bad consequences, especially if you follow the dev team who thinks forcing people to play a specific role is good for attracting players. Join a pub something. People play every class both on offense and defense because they do what they want and play as entertains them. One thing I think is inevitable is getting rid of the levels of the current sentry. Leveling up is confusing for beginners, and the same effect that leveling-up was implemented for can be achieved with a single level turret. It's just, oh no, that would take work.
• Marketing: It's not hard to advertise this game. It's a free game too, which pretty much sells itself. It's the fact that people advertise this game when it sucks that returns negative results. It then becomes the classic cry-wolf scenario. People try the game out time and time again hoping it has improved, but it never does (unless you're a pickup player who's actively ruining it: HUR HUR NERF ENGY I CAN'T CONC PAST HIM) and they become more and more reluctant to try it out in the future (even if it's significantly better).

Summary: Look out. It's another wall-of-text. I need reading comprehension skills. Let me insult you based on how much you type. I don't understand. Aw! Ah! My head hurts. My head hurts. Quick, guys, add to the pickup. I don't like reading! It hurts! Oh gobbgfbhjfghjfdf aughgauhauhhhhhhhh~.

[Iggy]

WiFiDi, there are changes being made in the beta-build. The next version will redefine many of the classes and their roles(based on what I've seen lately), while not straying too far from the TF concept. Obviously, I can't go into graphic details, as nothing is totally solid at this point. This game isn't meant to be another TFC... although that game is the main comparison point. Reason being; it was the last major TF game and was highly successful. Yes, it is still played today, and despite Bridgets ramblings, isn't quite dead.

The game is evolving, albeit slowly. But you have people working on it that have jobs, and lives outside of this game. It will take time, but in the end, I hope it will be a game we will all enjoy(I enjoy it pretty well at the current version, TBH).

[moosh]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Summary: Look out. It's another wall-of-text. I need reading comprehension skills. Let me insult you based on how much you type. I don't understand. Aw! Ah! My head hurts. My head hurts. Quick, guys, add to the pickup. I don't like reading! It hurts! Oh gobbgfbhjfghjfdf aughgauhauhhhhhhhh~.

[thiz]

Remove everything complex and make the game more like Team Fortress 2 so that the WhenWillFFOut's can understand instantly how to be good at the game while drooling over their keyboards.

No thanks.

[Bridget]

1. Keep complex and redundant mechanics in game.
2. Become tolerant of them over the years.
3. Delude yourself into thinking you're 'skilled' for doing so.
4. Masturbate vigorously at night while crying yourself to sleep.

[zE]

I think tfc source poll won here in foruns, so there you have the idea of what the majority of ff ers really want. But meh, first time I played ff I kinda disliked the lack of dept on it compared to tfc. Uber easy bhop, zero missing concs, grenade trails etc etc. Imo complexity and constant learning is a good thing, thats what i loved in tfc, the constant skill learning during several years

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by Iggy

The game is evolving, albeit slowly. But you have people working on it that have jobs, and lives outside of this game. It will take time, but in the end, I hope it will be a game we will all enjoy(I enjoy it pretty well at the current version, TBH).

trust me im well aware of this, thats its biggest problem with mods it can take awhile.

and also the reason it should be simplified is simple when i first play this game i found it fun but it over complicated for no reason it doesnt have to be why there are 2 shotguns its pointless ive never seen anyone use both ever theres no point. that will scare new players away, ive actually seen this happen.

the reason i said its hard to market is because yea its free but i only found out about this through sheer luck of me looking at steam free mods. sure if your looking for it youll find it. however what if your not your not gonna find it i cant look up anything other than fortress forever to find fortress forever videos. if you get my point.

[moosh]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

trust me im well aware of this, thats its biggest problem with mods it can take awhile.

and also the reason it should be simplified is simple when i first play this game i found it fun but it over complicated for no reason it doesnt have to be why there are 2 shotguns its almost pointless ive never seen anyone use both ever theres no point. that will scare new players away, ive actually seen this happen.

the reason i said its hard to market is because yea its free but i only found out about this through sheer luck of me looking at steam free mods. sure if your looking for it youll find it. however what if your not your not gonna find it i cant look up anything other than fortress forever to find fortress forever videos. if you get my point.

Normal shotgun is for picking off players at long range, super shot gun is used mainly for medium-short ranged battles. They both have a point.

[thiz]

Complex is what makes the game interesting, removing a few things that aren't much use here and there might make the game simpler, but it's not improving anything, it's dumbing it down.

Suggesting making this and that more like TF2 is pretty much the opposite of what this game needs, the public servers still have these muppets joining going "Why don't you guys play TF2? LOL", by making the game more like TF2 they'll actually have a point.

TF2 is shallow, with depth added through grinding for achievements and hats, which seems to be the norm for games today unfortunately. New weapons improve this, but are more of a 'hook' to keep players grinding in a lot of cases. It's got teamplay sure, but it's not fun being a medic if you are actually good at the game.

FF has different play styles for each class and within classes, it takes time to learn how to do them all well. It's not without its problems, there are too many avenues for 1 hit kills (detpack, emp, sniper) which is not at all fun to die to.

New players never seem to RTFM either, playing scout and trying to kill people purely because TF2 warped the idea of a scout happens all the time. I remember looking through the old TFC manual, became better for it, players expect to be spoonfed now and the mod doesn't cater for them, so they rage quit.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

trust me im well aware of this, thats its biggest problem with mods it can take awhile.

and also the reason it should be simplified is simple when i first play this game i found it fun but it over complicated for no reason it doesnt have to be why there are 2 shotguns its almost pointless ive never seen anyone use both ever theres no point. that will scare new players away, ive actually seen this happen.

the reason i said its hard to market is because yea its free but i only found out about this through sheer luck of me looking at steam free mods. sure if your looking for it youll find it. however what if your not your not gonna find it i cant look up anything other than fortress forever to find fortress forever videos. if you get my point.

I agree that a more agressive method of advertising should be implemented, but we(or should I say, the Dev team) are waiting for the Orange Box engine conversion to do that.

I don't see a real problem with removing some redundancies(single shotty, for one)... but a selection of weapons for different situations is really helpful, especially in competetive play.

Originally Posted by zE

I think tfc source poll won here in foruns, so there you have the idea of what the majority of ff ers really want. But meh, first time I played ff I kinda disliked the lack of dept on it compared to tfc. Uber easy bhop, zero missing concs, grenade trails etc etc. Imo complexity and constant learning is a good thing, thats what i loved in tfc, the constant skill learning during several years

I totally agree with your last line. It is the main reason I still love TFC. Part of it goes back to the players, though. Back when I was learning TFC, I would see someone do some sort of trick/stunt, and when I asked how they did it, they would take the time to explain/demonstrate it to me. These days, if you ask someone how they did something, they laugh at you and call you a noob.

I am against completely noobifying the game. If it's so easy to play that all you have to do is push a button, then why bother playing? I don't mind some things being easier to do, but there should still be a level of skill needed to become a top level player. No one should be able to master a game within the first hour of playing it.

Another part of the problem isn't the games fault, but with the "instant gratification society" we live in. They don't want to "work for it" anymore... but just have it handed to them.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by thiz

Complex is what makes the game interesting, removing a few things that aren't much use here and there might make the game simpler, but it's not improving anything, it's dumbing it down.

Suggesting making this and that more like TF2 is pretty much the opposite of what this game needs, the public servers still have these muppets joining going "Why don't you guys play TF2? LOL", by making the game more like TF2 they'll actually have a point.

TF2 is shallow, with depth added through grinding for achievements and hats, which seems to be the norm for games today unfortunately. New weapons improve this, but are more of a 'hook' to keep players grinding in a lot of cases. It's got teamplay sure, but it's not fun being a medic if you are actually good at the game.

FF has different play styles for each class and within classes, it takes time to learn how to do them all well. It's not without its problems, there are too many avenues for 1 hit kills (detpack, emp, sniper) which is not at all fun to die to.

New players never seem to RTFM either, playing scout and trying to kill people purely because TF2 warped the idea of a scout happens all the time. I remember looking through the old TFC manual, became better for it, players expect to be spoonfed now and the mod doesn't cater for them, so they rage quit.

yea my question though is this how do you access the manual i never figured that out. its not on the website i assume its in the game somewhere but i cant figure out where that is. secondly why not make some you tube videos explaining this this would make it easier to understand for alot of people.

also sure you got your veterans that been playing this game forever. what happens when you stop playing, the game dies out. new players are very important to any game same with a restaurant you need new people to come because eventually the original people that populated your restaurant will stop coming. personally i don't think tf2 is that dumb down its just simplified in a few areas and more complicated in others. why is that dumbing it down? (it isn't) when somethings over complicated its just overcomplicated im not saying make the game noob friendly but i feel its way unnecessary it will make it easier but if you look at this game its not noob friendly even with all these changes its still a very hard game to get the hang of conc blasting, poison, sleep darts, bunny hoping, fast game-play. all of that makes it really complicated these things are pretty cool i like that but i ask you do i really need 2 shotguns? and if i do then the control's need to be changed to allow easier access to that second shotgun because as of now i don't have time to change to that second shotgun.

[Dexter]

Maybe I'm wrong but the way I read OP was a list of things TF2 has that FF does not. Is copying TF2 a better solution then copying TFC?

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Another part of the problem isn't the games fault, but with the "instant gratification society" we live in. They don't want to "work for it" anymore... but just have it handed to them.

We're talking about a video game here, not a fucking nine to five job.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by Dexter

Maybe I'm wrong but the way I read OP was a list of things TF2 has that FF does not. Is copying TF2 a better solution then copying TFC?

no, thats not it all im mainly using it as an example. name another teambase game out there that i can use as i havnt played tfc.

just a quick question i may get hate mail for asking this but... what is the difference in a medic and a scout so far i cant find that much they both seem to serve the same rolls the medic doesn't really heal but rather jumps around like the scout. does what scout does.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

no, thats not it all im mainly using it as an example. name another teambase game out there that i can use as i havnt played tfc.

just a quick question i may get hate mail for asking this but... what is the difference in a medic and a scout so far i cant find that much they both seem to serve the same rolls the medic doesn't really heal but rather jumps around like the scout. does what scout does.

Medic does pretty much everything better than the Scout. <rage-for-ffpickup> Get rid of his concussion grenades. </rage-for-ffpickup> Give him some sort of healing grenade, or a passive heal, or something to make him a better offensive or defensive support class.

[Elmo]

quick off the top of my head summary

Scout is pure movement and almost no deathmatch when played 'as intended'. Currently its not obvious that's the intention of the class which is a bad thing, esp when new players don't have in-game tutorials to teach them these movement techniques

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...+tutorial&aq=0

Medic moves around and has the option of getting/moving the flag as a scout does but tends to death match using his shotgun and grenades to kill defence so that scouts and fellow offence players can pass choke points unscathed (thus have a better chance of moving the flag closer to home)

Scouts are particularly faster than medics so the requirement is there for each of their qualities.

Problem being that currently (2.41) they're the only viable offence. Spy coming close to viable but still pretty bad...

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Marketing: It's not hard to advertise this game. It's a free game too, which pretty much sells itself. It's the fact that people advertise this game when it sucks that returns negative results. It then becomes the classic cry-wolf scenario. People try the game out time and time again hoping it has improved, but it never does (unless you're a pickup player who's actively ruining it: HUR HUR NERF ENGY I CAN'T CONC PAST HIM) and they become more and more reluctant to try it out in the future (even if it's significantly better).

Ha ha, well put.

Originally Posted by Elmo

Problem being that currently (2.41) they're the only viable offence. Spy coming close to viable but still pretty bad...

In CTF you mean. Meanwhile in AvD land, the spy, demoman, pyro, and soldier do just fine running a train as O.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Bridget

We're talking about a video game here, not a fucking nine to five job.

You think people have a different mindset in regards to video games than they do in the real world? You really are dillusional, aren't you?

[Bridget]

Who knew that people would be looking for instant gratification from an entertainment source? Who knew!?